From: Aimee Farr Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:56am Subject: RE: Rants and flames Mr. Prentner: > >>Steve Uhrig stated: "If any exception was made whatsoever for the public > to use this stuff, it > >>would be for video from the lovely Aimee's boudoir (sp?) !!" > > Do the rules of this forum permit sexual harassing rants? Gosh, I hope so. You wouldn't believe the information that gets me in here. *batty eyelashes* Actually, they have more subtle ways of dealing with a suspected "sexual harassers." If they are suspected evil-female-lawyers, it resembles a Raptor scene from Jurassic Park. You know, "they coordinate." *I'm* the one that's in the "sexual harassment" dog house, not Uhrig. In a sense, I sexually harassed Steve first. (He won't mind me telling this, I know...) I sent him my picture, with what probably resembled some goofy pretextual introductory conversation. He sent me back a picture of him and his wife, and fairly called me a rattlesnake. I recall he even mentioned something about "K-Mart stock photos." Hence, "Uhrig" secured a place in my contacts file. Is this relevant to the list? Yes. It's the "Strange Women Are Bad Rule." Also, I use adversarial tactics to provoke conversation. (I'll stop.) And, Steve does speak from experience, and I get a lot of insight from him. Anyway, thanks for your sentiments Karl, but I asked for it. :-] ~Aimee 4894 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:38am Subject: Beer study Subject: Beer study Sad news about beer. You have to hope this study is flawed, but the evidence is irrefutable. A group of scientist for Health Canada suggested that, considering the results of recent analysis that revealed the presence of female hormones in beer, men should take a hard look at their beer consumption. The theory is that drinking beer makes men turn into women. To test the theory, 100 men were fed 6 pints of beer within a one hour period. It was observed that: 100% of the men gained weight, talked excessively without making sense, became overly emotional, couldn't drive, failed to think rationally, argued over nothing, had to sit down while urinating, couldn't perform sexually, and refused to apologize when wrong. No further testing is planned. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt,1910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4895 From: paragonwa Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:02am Subject: Laptop Security A few weeks ago someone on the list (or another one that I subscribe to) was looking for a way to track or locate their laptop if stolen. Loyaltec - http://www.Loyaltec.com has a product called BRIKAC that is suppose to do this. http://www.loyaltec.com/brikac.htm R K Carper CrypTEC Forensic Bellevue, WA Ron@C... http://www.CrypTEC-Forensic.com 4896 From: Marty Kaiser Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:12am Subject: Fw: Quantas These will just tickle your funnybone. . . . Subject: Fw: Quantas Here are some actual logged maintenance complaints and problems, known as submitted by QUANTAS pilots and the solution recorded by maintenance engineers. By the way Quantas is the only major airline that has never had an accident. P = The problem logged by the pilot. S = The solution and action taken by the engineers. ************************************************************ P: Left inside main tire almost needs replacement. S: Almost replaced left inside main tire. P: Test flight OK, except autoland very rough. S: Autoland not installed on this aircraft. P: No. 2 propeller seeping prop fluid. S: No. 2 propeller seepage normal. Nos. 1, 3 and 4 propellers lack normal seepage. P: Something loose in cockpit. S: Something tightened in cockpit. P: Dead bugs on windshield. S: Live bugs on back order. P: Autopilot in altitude-hold mode produces a 200-fpm descent. S: Cannot reproduce problem on ground. P: Evidence of leak on right main landing gear. S: Evidence removed. P: DME volume unbelievably loud. S: DME volume set to more believable level. P: Friction locks cause throttle levers to stick. S: That's what they're there for! P: IFF inoperative. S: IFF always inoperative in OFF mode. P: Suspected crack in windscreen. S: Suspect you're right. P: Number 3 engine missing. S: Engine found on right wing after brief search. P: Aircraft handles funny. S: Aircraft warned to straighten up, fly right, and be serious. P: Target radar hums. S: Reprogrammed target radar with words. P: Mouse in cockpit. S: Cat installed 4897 From: ctm120 Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 9:47pm Subject: Rants & Flames Karl: With all undue respect, you've butted in a conversation where you clearly don't belong, and the subject of which you apparently don't understand (either TSCM or the law). You have also impuned and insulted one the most respected practisioners in the field; a man who has forgotten more than most on this list will ever learn and who is a sage to many of us. His integrity is undisputed to anyone who knows him. Selfish motives were not behind his comments, which incidentally were legally correct. Rather the opposite. He was giving fare warning to those of us (me included) who don't take the matter seriously enough or think we are immune to the law. He personally gave me the same advice last year when I mentioned my "trophies" that I then was using to practice with. I took Steve's advice to an FBI agent who told me I'd better follow that advice. I am a police officer and the goalie on a law enforcement hockey team. The agent is a personal friend who is a forward on our team. We played together for years. He was shocked that I would be so ignorant as to think being a police officer and a TSCMer for 13 years would confer any immunity from prosecution for possessing these devices; period. Steve, as usual was right. Rather than knock someone you obviously know nothing about, or their knowledge or intentions, do some research next time so you won't have to open your mouth wider for the other foot. Chad Off Duty Security offdutysecurity@h... 4898 From: Fernando Martins Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:13am Subject: RE: Beer study Workaround until a fix is available by several vendors: just drink portuguese wine ;) Any tips from Germany? :> FM > -----Original Message----- > From: James M. Atkinson [mailto:jmatk@t...] > Sent: quarta-feira, 27 de Fevereiro de 2002 12:38 > To: TSCM-L Mailing List > Subject: [TSCM-L] Beer study > > > > Subject: Beer study > > Sad news about beer. You have to hope this study is flawed, > but the evidence is irrefutable. A group of scientist for > Health Canada suggested that, considering the results of > recent analysis that revealed the presence of female hormones > in beer, men should take a hard look at their beer consumption. > > The theory is that drinking beer makes men turn into women. > To test the theory, 100 men were fed 6 pints of beer within a > one hour period. It was observed that: 100% of the men > gained weight, talked excessively without making sense, > became overly emotional, couldn't drive, failed to think > rationally, argued over nothing, had to sit down while > urinating, couldn't perform sexually, and refused to > apologize when wrong. > > No further testing is planned. > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------ > The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most > Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and > Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------ > James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 > Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 > 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ > Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------ > "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out > how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could > have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is > actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and > sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes > short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the > great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at > the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, > and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring > greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and > timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." > - Theodore Roosevelt,1910 > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------ > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire > speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > 4899 From: DrPepper Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:28am Subject: Re: Beer study Well, , , ther's a song that goes, , , , , , , In Heaven there is no beer, , , , , That's why we drink it here, , , , , Well known song in the Pittsburgh area. Ron C. ================================ "James M. Atkinson" wrote: > Subject: Beer study > > Sad news about beer. You have to hope this study is flawed, but the > evidence is irrefutable. A group of scientist for Health Canada > suggested that, considering the results of recent analysis that > revealed the presence of female hormones in beer, men should take > a hard look at their beer consumption. > > The theory is that drinking beer makes men turn into women. To test the > theory, 100 men were fed 6 pints of beer within a one hour period. It > was observed that: 100% of the men gained weight, talked excessively > without making sense, became overly emotional, couldn't drive, failed > to think rationally, argued over nothing, had to sit down while urinating, > couldn't perform sexually, and refused to apologize when wrong. > > No further testing is planned. > > -- > 4900 From: Shawn Hughes Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:36am Subject: ebay just got an email from ebay. You need to check your user preferences at: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?OptinLoginShow They had me agreeing to receive PHONE CALLS, POST OFFICE mail, as well as emails from their advertisers. Don't know about you, but that's bullcrap. Seeya! Shawn 4901 From: Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:01am Subject: RE: Rants and flames Dear All I write not to prolong further verbal jousting but to second what Chad adequately stated in relation to Steve. Indeed it is at times like this that we get the chance to heap praise were it is due. Describing him as a 'Sage' is a very appropriate term and one which he justly deserves. You do not need to buy anything from him to receive help and advice which he offers freely. Do business with him and you will receive excellent equipment and fairness. My expertise, if I could call it that, lies in Conventional and Rural surveillance. I probably am on the bottom rung of the TSCM apprenticeship ladder, so I value the postings of Steve and others on the list, eventhough at times I feel I am reading 'German'. (no offence meant to any German members). In relation to Aimee, she certainly can provoke (promote) conversation and is a master of the 'wind up' to which I was easily 'harpooned' by her in my early days on the list. This too is of value, as I believe that if we wish to grow we must be stretched. Should Aimee wish to privately email me a list of good books that will help me improve, then I also hope she will provide a photograph which I promise to use as a bookmark. Neither persons mentioned need me to defend them, however sometimes we all need a pat on the back. This is my 'slap'. Tim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 4902 From: Joseph Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:55am Subject: RE: Beer study The real sadness is the fact that Most people don't realize that 25% of all drinkers in the United States are kids. I think probably due to the fact that in order for most families to survive it takes 2 to 3 incomes to support a family any more. Thus causing stress on the kids when parents aren't around to discipline. Now solve that issue and it won't matter what the hormonal ingredients of beer are. Joseph -----Original Message----- From: James M. Atkinson [mailto:jmatk@t...] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 4:38 AM To: TSCM-L Mailing List Subject: [TSCM-L] Beer study Subject: Beer study Sad news about beer. You have to hope this study is flawed, but the evidence is irrefutable. A group of scientist for Health Canada suggested that, considering the results of recent analysis that revealed the presence of female hormones in beer, men should take a hard look at their beer consumption. The theory is that drinking beer makes men turn into women. To test the theory, 100 men were fed 6 pints of beer within a one hour period. It was observed that: 100% of the men gained weight, talked excessively without making sense, became overly emotional, couldn't drive, failed to think rationally, argued over nothing, had to sit down while urinating, couldn't perform sexually, and refused to apologize when wrong. No further testing is planned. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------- "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt,1910 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------- ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 4903 From: Aimee Farr Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:00pm Subject: RE: Rants and flames Tmerc wrote: > In relation to Aimee, she certainly can provoke (promote) > conversation and is > a master of the 'wind up' to which I was easily 'harpooned' by her in my > early days on the list. This too is of value, as I believe that > if we wish > to grow we must be stretched. Should Aimee wish to privately > email me a list > of good books that will help me improve, then I also hope she > will provide a > photograph which I promise to use as a bookmark. :) There is so much information here that is not reflected in secondary sources, it's in your heads. There is a major knowledge gap between secondary and primary sources in this area. For me to "I agree!," -- gets me zip. When I make an inflammatory statement or disagree -- it gets me great feedback and insight. Steve is an five-star source, but everybody's opinions are valid. However, stick with your co-professionals book recommendations. I have the technical abilities of a banana. ~Aimee 4904 From: Aimee Farr Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:31pm Subject: RE: RE: Felons on this list? ALL READ Steve: > Legal scholars can think anything they want. They aren't involved in the > profession. Which is why I ask you. I figured this one out already. > Lots of people disagree with me on points of law. Lots of them are even > lawyers. ALL walk away educated after my testimony, and with just the > ever so slightest hint of humility. > > > 3. "First, you must establish a relationship with the person in charge, > > whom I will refer to as the client. This has to be closely akin to a > > doctor-patient or attorney-client relationship. This person > must trust you > > implicitly...." -Robert W. Doms, Sr., LTC AUS, Ret., _Practical > > Countermeasures For Law Enforcement_ 7 (2000). > But what does this have to do with anything regarding the public's > ILLEGAL possession of transmitters. > > Bob Doms did not write that booklet for the public. He wrote it for other > law enforcement officers. He's talking people on the other side of the > fence from where we are sitting. Well, I think we're all on the same side. > > I would argue that you are a *fiduciary* professional, and you > > shouldn't have to babysit a stupid gadget. If you carry the indicia of > > a professionalism, I have no problem trusting you to deliver the > > "evil" to law enforcement. > > Then you are a proponent of destroying the legal chain of custody, and > ruining any chance of prosecution? No. > SWEEPERS ARE LAYMEN! Only in the most unusual of instances are they > commissioned law enforcement officers, and this discussion excludes them. > > Sweepers have NO LEGAL GROUND to claim the status of 'fiduciary' > professional. No provisions for that in the law. In court, I would argue you are a fiduciary professional, with corresponding legal duties. Fiduciary duties are conferred by the nature of the relationship, rather than a statute. This statute makes you an agent of the government. > The law is fine the way it is. Bull. This stuff is spreading like fire ants. > Sweepers, with only the rarest exceptions described above, are laymen. > They are the public. Break the legal chain of custody by placing physical > evidence of a felony in the hands of a layman, and no prosecutor will > touch it. I disagree. The future is privatization. You are already servicing an invisible crime. That makes the play of interests a little bit unusual. > Or is that an ulterior motive you are seeking? *rolls eyes* > How would any sweeper you know of, from this list or anywhere else in the > galaxy, be considered a 'fiduciary' professional? What standards would be > applied? What certifications? What licensing? What training? The common law. > Under what standards or authority would you confer the aegis of > 'fiduciary professional' regarding ANY sweeper you have met thus far? The law. It's bigger than Title III. > > You have been engaged as a private solutionist. Heaven forbid you > > should study the evil! *gasp!* I think that should be legal. > > I want to study the effects of machine gun fire impacting on Texas female > attorneys. Should I be allowed to have a machine gun? Bad logic alert. > I want to study the effects of gamma rays on man in the moon marigolds. > Should I be allowed to have marigolds? Gamma rays? Bad logic alert. > Point being, for these other studies, there are certifications, > licensing, formal training requirements, etc. to separate the men from > the boys. > > There aren't in the TSCM business. So, legally, we're all boys. Perhaps there are more creative solutions. > Point being, NO TSCMer has any legal standing to possess electronic > surveillance devices nor to take them into custody, merely by virtue of > being involved in TSCM to some degree. Yes, that is the law. > The owner of this list, Jim Atkinson, and the writer and operator of the > largest TSCM website in the world, is not a legit professional authorized > to possess electronic surveillance. If he locates a device on a job, I > can promise you he won't touch it; he will remain on the scene until duly > constituted authorities arrive to take custody of the device. I don't > even have to ask him. I know that is how he would handle it. Well, it isn't a dead body, and it really is an outdated means of addressing the problem. Like I said, I think it contributes to 'charlatan' sales-power. I also think it undermines a fiduciary relationship. That can work against a profession's interest in maintaining the quality and ethical standards of the profession. We don't treat other security breaches this way, which do involve a felony. I don't see this issue as black and white as you do, Steve. If I was an agent of the government, "evil lawyers" would rule the earth. > Appropriate provisions are made for legitimate users or possesors of > electronic surveillance, and I detailed those, and anyone can read them > in the original cite. Yes, dear. I know what the law says. > > I disagree. There should be an exception for qualified research. > > Limited or licensed, whatever. > > There is. Simply get a government contract to supply devices or even > services, even if for destructive test, or evaluation, or assault and > flattery, and you're completely in the clear legally. > > That's precisely what I did, and last month was 30 years I've been doing > it. > > I'll quit here. I have to leave for Seattle in the AM. Amongst other > things, gonna meet with a bunch of high powered attorneys and advise them > how to handle their client's affairs where surveillance may be involved. Well, I hope they listen to you. The low-powered attorneys are still trying to figure all this out. ~Aimee 4905 From: DrPepper Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:50pm Subject: Re: ebay YEP!! And the easy way to NOT get this krap, is to read carefully before you "click" -- Dr Pepper aka WB6GKI in the High Desert of California. Check out my LIVE Hamshack Cam at: http://www1.iwvisp.com/DrPepper/ham/ham.htm ============================================= Shawn Hughes wrote: > just got an email from ebay. > > You need to check your user preferences at: > http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?OptinLoginShow > > They had me agreeing to receive PHONE CALLS, POST OFFICE mail, as well as > emails from their advertisers. > > Don't know about you, but that's bullcrap. > > Seeya! > > Shawn > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 4906 From: Lewis Z. Koch Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:45pm Subject: RE: Rants and flames As noted by Tmer in his very wide of the mark/remark about Aimee Farr she certainly can provoke (promote) > > conversation and is > > a master of the 'wind up' to which I was easily 'harpooned' by her in my > > early days on the list. This too is of value, as I believe that > > if we wish > > to grow we must be stretched. Should Aimee wish to privately > > email me a list > > of good books that will help me improve, then I also hope she > > will provide a > > photograph which I promise to use as a bookmark. One should be thankful for both small and great favors, and whin about neither. Aimee Farr "provokes?" Nonsense. Women provoke. Men are aggressive. (See Jeffrey K. Skilling. Men don't call other men provocative. They find another word that begins with "P.") Aimee harpoons? And I suppose men "nail it?" If one deservedly gets ripped a new one, perhaps one does get "grow" and gets "stretched." Aimee fails, I feel, to carefully caution that if the offense happens again, she will really take his/her ass to the cleaners. I think the same kind of posting is mandatory on homes where tough dogs reside. And in this (world) neighborhood, one damn well better have the cojones to defend oneself. Finally there is this: "Should Aimee wish to privately > > email me a list > > of good books that will help me improve, then I also hope she > > will provide a > > photograph which I promise to use as a bookmark." You should be so lucky (and there is no sarcasm to this.) I happened to have mentioned an area of law enforcement with which I have some --I thought -- fairly heavy researched background and personal familiarity. Aimee provided me with a list of about 15 books, including one out of print Congressional hearing 229 pages long that cost a small fortune to buy on a rarebook web site, that was worth every penny. Now my library on this subject, thanks to Aimee is as complete as any in the nation. What is astonishing about all this is this: 1) each of her recommendations were fresh (or had faded from my fading memory, 2) it came from someone with absolutely no personal history with the subject (as I had), 3 she spent an enormous amount of time and effort chasing all this down as merely the kind of favor one does when a neighbor comes over to borrow a cup of sugar for the brownies one is baking. I say this with the grey hair to prove it -- no one her age -- male or female -- has every coughed up that kind of information about a period of time she never lived through. "...a master of the 'wind up'?" I would suggest that any list Aimee leaves "winds up" the lessor for it. Lewis Z. Koch Journalist [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 4907 From: Matthew Paulsen Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:41pm Subject: RE: RE: Felons on this list? ALL READ Illegal, what a waste: I truly do not understand why these devices are illegal to own by individuals or organizations that provide these services. It appears to be completely illogical. Looking at the software security development industry, many people appropriate, disassemble, manufacture, research and test systems that provide direct illegal consequences if used improperly. They are in many cases entrusted by the general population to understand that bad things should not be used just because they are around. Why the TSCM field and the government have decided to mandate that these devices cannot be used by legitimate entities to perform legitimate research to develop appropriate technologies for anti and counter services seems to be a bit strange. How can one protect oneself without the ability to understand what your are protecting yourself against? How can a commerically driven nation derive a truly competitive environment which creates better products, faster, cheaper and quicker to market without this ability? It's unfortunate that the manufacturers and industry professionals of countermeasures and other related services do not work with organizations and personnel in government to create viable business opportunities which would benefit private and public efforts towards an increased awareness of their services and products while extending the product availibility to a larger audience as reduced costs with higher quality. Let the boys be boys, and if they are to be men, make them real men: When it comes to professional certifications, sure, there may not be any in the TSCM field that the public at large knows of (if there are any at all, I don't know), as there are in other fields, such as network integration or computer security or law, or accounting. Unfortunately, the certifications available that are widely used in the computing industry are all basically garbage for seasoned professionals. JMA - I hope you don't mind me using you as an example for the moment, you're a perfect pinup for what I'm talking about. You have taken umpteen training courses and probably have a 20 page resume of certifications. While it is commendable that you have trained for these certifications and continue to invest a substantial portion of your time towards maintaining them, I have known many more people in my life that I would call experts in my field that do not have certifications but rather, only take the time to learn (on their own or in courses) to understand their profession to a higher level. In a crunch if I had to choose between a non-certified person that I considered an expert and a highly certified person that I did not know, who couldn't provide case histories, I'd go with the non-certified individual that has proven their expertise in the field over a substatial period of time. Sure, I may lose out on good people once in a while, but I'm willing to take that loss since I've been burned more times in the certification pan than the experience pan. These days, teenagers are obtaining these same certifications in high school, just as seasoned professionals are. It's an unfortunate position that I'm placed in many times when I consult for uneducated clients and/or talk with hiring managers and have to go to the point of justifying bill rates that are generally five times higher than other people with less experience. In many cases these people hire the cheap person, and I clean up the mistakes later when things fail, and then it's an emergency, after-hours, sometimes weekend bill rate which is never fun to discuss with the account the next day. I think others would have similar war stories along these lines also. The technical certification industry is marketed as the end all be all, by large manufacturers, when it is nothing more than a basic grounds for distinguishing who has read a book or taken a class versus those that do not, in many cases, only to digest the material the day before taking the class - see your local 'it boot camp 5 day course' sites for more and lose it the next. Point in case - a previous manager I worked under had 19 certifications - master levels from novell, microsoft, cisco, etc etc as well as teaching certification for these courses. He couldn't bind an IP address to a NIC on Winnt. And yet he tought these courses to who knows how many people over time. I find this trend disturbing. I'd dread the day a certification standard was applied to the TSCM field, even though I am just beginning to understand the nuances of it, just as I still dread certifications in the computing industry which are driven by manufacturers for additional sales opportunities, just to be able to tell the hr manager or the client I have it so I'm considered a professional. And yet, I still wish there was a good body that would allow me to put a P.S. after my name and be able to be happy of the fact that I had learned enough to be able to say it and not defend it when it is looked at. Until that day comes, I'll continue to shake my head as I see a few TLA's after people names in resumes which hold no ground as to their true level of compentency. If things are going to change in any measurable way, the computing industry, and perhaps the TSCM industry as well, will have to look to groups such as the AICPA and the Bar to understand how to develop a true level of certification which means something in the long run (most of my CPA friends would laugh at that last sentence, but I'm not certain what my lawyer buddies would do). Until then, (imho) it's just a garbage slip of paper that anyone can get, which only means something to the hiring manager and not other industry professionals, which will create additional problems for people that do wish to excel as they face angry managers who have hired inept individuals to work for them. Matt -----Original Message----- From: Aimee Farr [mailto:aimee.farr@p...] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 12:32 PM To: TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] RE: Felons on this list? ALL READ Steve: > Legal scholars can think anything they want. They aren't involved in the > profession. Which is why I ask you. I figured this one out already. > Lots of people disagree with me on points of law. Lots of them are even > lawyers. ALL walk away educated after my testimony, and with just the > ever so slightest hint of humility. > > > 3. "First, you must establish a relationship with the person in charge, > > whom I will refer to as the client. This has to be closely akin to a > > doctor-patient or attorney-client relationship. This person > must trust you > > implicitly...." -Robert W. Doms, Sr., LTC AUS, Ret., _Practical > > Countermeasures For Law Enforcement_ 7 (2000). > But what does this have to do with anything regarding the public's > ILLEGAL possession of transmitters. > > Bob Doms did not write that booklet for the public. He wrote it for other > law enforcement officers. He's talking people on the other side of the > fence from where we are sitting. Well, I think we're all on the same side. > > I would argue that you are a *fiduciary* professional, and you > > shouldn't have to babysit a stupid gadget. If you carry the indicia of > > a professionalism, I have no problem trusting you to deliver the > > "evil" to law enforcement. > > Then you are a proponent of destroying the legal chain of custody, and > ruining any chance of prosecution? No. > SWEEPERS ARE LAYMEN! Only in the most unusual of instances are they > commissioned law enforcement officers, and this discussion excludes them. > > Sweepers have NO LEGAL GROUND to claim the status of 'fiduciary' > professional. No provisions for that in the law. In court, I would argue you are a fiduciary professional, with corresponding legal duties. Fiduciary duties are conferred by the nature of the relationship, rather than a statute. This statute makes you an agent of the government. > The law is fine the way it is. Bull. This stuff is spreading like fire ants. > Sweepers, with only the rarest exceptions described above, are laymen. > They are the public. Break the legal chain of custody by placing physical > evidence of a felony in the hands of a layman, and no prosecutor will > touch it. I disagree. The future is privatization. You are already servicing an invisible crime. That makes the play of interests a little bit unusual. > Or is that an ulterior motive you are seeking? *rolls eyes* > How would any sweeper you know of, from this list or anywhere else in the > galaxy, be considered a 'fiduciary' professional? What standards would be > applied? What certifications? What licensing? What training? The common law. > Under what standards or authority would you confer the aegis of > 'fiduciary professional' regarding ANY sweeper you have met thus far? The law. It's bigger than Title III. > > You have been engaged as a private solutionist. Heaven forbid you > > should study the evil! *gasp!* I think that should be legal. > > I want to study the effects of machine gun fire impacting on Texas female > attorneys. Should I be allowed to have a machine gun? Bad logic alert. > I want to study the effects of gamma rays on man in the moon marigolds. > Should I be allowed to have marigolds? Gamma rays? Bad logic alert. > Point being, for these other studies, there are certifications, > licensing, formal training requirements, etc. to separate the men from > the boys. > > There aren't in the TSCM business. So, legally, we're all boys. Perhaps there are more creative solutions. > Point being, NO TSCMer has any legal standing to possess electronic > surveillance devices nor to take them into custody, merely by virtue of > being involved in TSCM to some degree. Yes, that is the law. > The owner of this list, Jim Atkinson, and the writer and operator of the > largest TSCM website in the world, is not a legit professional authorized > to possess electronic surveillance. If he locates a device on a job, I > can promise you he won't touch it; he will remain on the scene until duly > constituted authorities arrive to take custody of the device. I don't > even have to ask him. I know that is how he would handle it. Well, it isn't a dead body, and it really is an outdated means of addressing the problem. Like I said, I think it contributes to 'charlatan' sales-power. I also think it undermines a fiduciary relationship. That can work against a profession's interest in maintaining the quality and ethical standards of the profession. We don't treat other security breaches this way, which do involve a felony. I don't see this issue as black and white as you do, Steve. If I was an agent of the government, "evil lawyers" would rule the earth. > Appropriate provisions are made for legitimate users or possesors of > electronic surveillance, and I detailed those, and anyone can read them > in the original cite. Yes, dear. I know what the law says. > > I disagree. There should be an exception for qualified research. > > Limited or licensed, whatever. > > There is. Simply get a government contract to supply devices or even > services, even if for destructive test, or evaluation, or assault and > flattery, and you're completely in the clear legally. > > That's precisely what I did, and last month was 30 years I've been doing > it. > > I'll quit here. I have to leave for Seattle in the AM. Amongst other > things, gonna meet with a bunch of high powered attorneys and advise them > how to handle their client's affairs where surveillance may be involved. Well, I hope they listen to you. The low-powered attorneys are still trying to figure all this out. ~Aimee Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 4908 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:03am Subject: RE: Felons on this list? ALL READ Once upon a midnight dreary, Matthew Paulsen pondered, weak and weary: > Illegal, what a waste: I truly do not understand why these devices are > illegal to own by individuals or organizations that provide these > services. > Why the TSCM field and the government have decided to mandate that > these devices cannot be used by legitimate entities to perform > legitimate research to develop appropriate technologies for anti and > counter services seems to be a bit strange. The TSCM industry has nothing to do with passing the laws. They were passed because of abuse. And, from my 30 years' experience in the industry, I will state the TSCM industry is one of the largest violators of the law as a class. > How can one protect oneself without the ability to understand what > your are protecting yourself against? A bunch of us have managed to. > Unfortunately, the certifications available that are widely used in the > computing industry are all basically garbage for seasoned > professionals. Same is true for TSCM. Even certifications are meaningless when it comes to possessing, using, advertising, etc, electronic surveillance devices. The very idiots who violate the law perpetrate it. You can thank the spy shops, for one. > I'd dread the day a certification standard was applied to the TSCM field, And rightly so, if previous attempts to do so are considered. All I have time for now. 3000 miles from home, but fortunately with a T1 in my hotel room, and a zillion emails left before I go horizontal. I still love you Aimee, however the spirit is willing, but the flesh is falling asleep ... Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 4909 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:44am Subject: RE: Rants and flames As list moderator, I noticed that Aimee unsubscribed herself from the list yesterday. I enjoyed her exchanges, and found her insights to be interesting. Hopefully she will be back, -jma At 2:00 PM -0600 2/27/02, Aimee Farr wrote: >Tmerc wrote: > >> In relation to Aimee, she certainly can provoke (promote) >> conversation and is >> a master of the 'wind up' to which I was easily 'harpooned' by her in my >> early days on the list. This too is of value, as I believe that >> if we wish >> to grow we must be stretched. Should Aimee wish to privately >> email me a list >> of good books that will help me improve, then I also hope she >> will provide a >> photograph which I promise to use as a bookmark. > >:) There is so much information here that is not reflected in secondary >sources, it's in your heads. There is a major knowledge gap between >secondary and primary sources in this area. > >For me to "I agree!," -- gets me zip. When I make an inflammatory statement >or disagree -- it gets me great feedback and insight. Steve is an five-star >source, but everybody's opinions are valid. > >However, stick with your co-professionals book recommendations. I have the >technical abilities of a banana. > >~Aimee -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt,1910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4910 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:12am Subject: RE: Felons on this list? ALL READ >At 7:20 PM -0500 2/26/02, Steve Uhrig wrote: [snip] > >The owner of this list, Jim Atkinson, and the writer and operator of the >largest TSCM website in the world, is not a legit professional authorized >to possess electronic surveillance. If he locates a device on a job, I >can promise you he won't touch it; he will remain on the scene until duly >constituted authorities arrive to take custody of the device. I don't >even have to ask him. I know that is how he would handle it. [snip] I will only possess an eavesdropping device if and when doing so is in total and absolute compliance with the federal laws concerning same. When I come across a bug, wiretap, or other such thing I have the common sense to simply document my findings and confirm that it is indeed a surveillance device. I will only touch the device to the extent required to determine what it is (when finding it), to confirm that it is indeed an eavesdropping device, and to document the findings without disturbing any evidence. I have, and will also assist law enforcement people (with appropriate jurisdiction) in the actual removal of the device, and if so requested I will perform a forensic evaluation and identification of the device in the field, but only under their direct and immediate supervision. At no time will I take the bug into my own possession, or play with it in any way. I treat a found bug much the same way that I would treat a dead body if I came across one in the field, and would strongly suggest that other TSCM'ers follow my lead. If I come across a dead body I am not going to stick it in my trunk, haul it home, and then perform medical experiments on it claiming that it is being done in the name of education or science. Instead I am going to stop, calm down, notify the appropriate authorities and request that they come out and take control of the situation. While I am awaiting their arrival I may take a couple of Polaroids if I can do so without disturbing the scene, and will write down as many details as possible while they are still sharp in memory. Ditto, in cases when I find a bug... Once you are positive you have found a bug IMMEDIATELY make your initial notifications. If you don't know why, then consider some other occupation. Once your initial notification you can breath easier, but try to document as much of the details as possible and take great care not to disturb the scene (if you are unable to do this, then consider some other occupation). Make lots of written notes, take lots of pictures, and watch how people around you behaving relative to the "thing you found". Once you make the first notes, or take the first photographs, sign them, write the date and time on them, and then make five photocopies of them ASAP. The originals and two sets of photocopies are given to the law enforcement officer who responds, one cop goes to the client (if the LEO approves it), and the remaining copies stay in your possession. Your attorney gets one copy, which is notarized, sealed into an envelope, which he places into a second envelope and send to himself via registered mail. When I go out to perform a sweep I always carry two instant Polaroid cameras, and enough film to make 100 pictures. I also include several Marks-a-lot pens/markers, sleeves for the Polaroids, and a pad of color charts/scales. I also carry a formal 100+ page "Discovery Protocol" which breaks down everything that I will do (in detail) when and if I find a surveillance device, and include all of this in a single briefcase which I can grab to facilitate documentation in the event of a bug find. My position and policy on how I handle bug discoveries (or bugs in general) has been the same for over twenty years now... I will not build, touch, play, or possess unless explicitly authorized to do so by law. It simply amazes me how many folks will openly violate the laws concerning bugging devices. The law is very explicit... As a private citizen or private company you can only possess these devices AFTER you obtain a written contract from a law enforcement or intelligence agency; and federal law prohibits maintaining any kind of inventory or stock in advance of the purchase order being issued. If your an ex-cop or ex-spook all those little goodies have to be returned to the agency. In fact if you are a cop you can not legally possess the devices unless you are formally "taking delivery, receiving documented training, performing documented evaluation, or executing a formal court order" and at no other time. LEO's can not by law keep a box of bugs at their office, in their cars, or loan them out to PI's. Same as a dead body... -jma -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt,1910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4911 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:43am Subject: "What to do when you discover a bug..." Seminar After some rather serious queries and requests from list members I have decided to offer a formal one day seminar in Boston, MA on "What to do when you discover a bug...". The cost will be nominal, will run about 10-12 hours, and will be held in a really nice conference room right in a hotel on the airport property (so you do not need to rent a car). The seminar will include lots of handouts, and detailed discussions and protocols on how to reduce a "bug find" down into paper documentation, and how to "cover your ass" both legally, and practically. Attendees will receive a copy of my 100+ page "Discovery Protocol" which actually exceeds the requirements laid out in CIA Procedural guides, AR 381-14, and other related standards; however, none of the seminar contents are classified (at least not yet). Based on the preferences of those attending I will offer the seminar either during the week or over the weekend (whichever the majority prefer). If there is sufficient demand I may run the course so that it runs into a second day. Enrollment will close several weeks (30 days) in advance so everybody can buy advance cheap airline or train tickets, and I would encourage attendees to arrive the evening before the seminar, and to plan to stay at least the evening of the seminar (as I have a history of running long hours on courses). As required in my other seminars I will require every attendee to sign a non-disclosure agreement in advance, and to promise to protect the seminar contents as Proprietary Trade Secrets. There will be one agreement turned in with the enrollment and seminar fee, and a second identical one turned in at the very beginning of the seminar. Also, due to the very sensitive nature of the materials the use of or possession of cameras, recorders, or any other kind of audio or video recording devices will be absolutely prohibited. Course attendees will be responsible for their own hotel rooms, their own meals, and transportation. I will provide the conference room, course materials, voluminous handouts, beverages, light snacks, and if there is enough interest a buffet breakfast (before class on the first day). I will arrange to accept tuition by either a company check, or via PayPal, however; if you are a no-show you will forfeit the fee. Once I get some feedback from the list membership I will prepare a PDF and HTML signup sheet and upload it so you can fill it out and send it in. I am leaning towards the first part of May 2002, or possibly late mid to late April. I would point out that this seminar is for serious TSCM people, corporate TSCM folks, government TSCM people, and so on. There will be no sales demos, no equipment instruction, and no hand holding, period... Only attend if you want to learn about what to do AFTER you discover the bug. If your firm or agency is interested I will consider suit-casing the seminar and bringing it to your facility for a private (close enrollment) presentation. Also, just as a formality; let me point out that people who illegally possess (or who have illegally possessed or are known to me to have illegally possessed) eavesdropping devices are not invited to attend and will be refused registration. -jma -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt,1910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4912 From: Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:56am Subject: Interesting article Found this today...thought the group my find it interesting: SteveP Students discover "bug" in Whittier College newspaper office Listening device could have been planted several years ago, says private investigator © 2002 Student Press Law Center February 27, 2002 CALIFORNIA - Student newspaper staff members at Whittier College uncovered what may turn out to be the story of the year ... in their very own office. A routine maintenance service call last week turned up an electronic surveillance device imbedded in the office walls of the Quaker Campus. It is not known how long the bug, which was not functioning when pulled from the wall, was hidden. The device was capable of transmitting a radio signal to any receiver, tuned to the correct frequency, within a three-mile radius, editor Amy Stice said. The discovery prompted a shared sense of disbelief and concern among the newspaper staff and the university's administration. As this article was posted, it was not clear which university offices, if any, were investigating the matter. Whittier Police Department officials contacted by the SPLC could not find a report of the incident in their database. The episode began last Thursday when a maintenance worker, in the newspaper office to fix a broken light table, found a problem with the electrical socket. Upon taking it apart, he discovered a two-inch surveillance device soldered to the back of the socket, Stice said. The paper alerted campus security and on Monday an electrician checked all of the other sockets in the office. No more bugs were found, but campus security called the Whittier Police Department later that day. Stice said the officers, however, were reluctant to take action. "The Whittier Police Department came in, apparently looked at the bug and said, 'Well there's nothing we can do about it; yeah there's a bug but we don't have any evidence for this,' " Stice said. The officers said they did not want to file a report, she added, and that such a measure would necessitate taking custody of the device, which would probably be thrown away at a later time. The paper decided to keep possession of the bug. Student government president Jess Craven, whose office is located in the same building as the publications room, was worried that more bugs might be hidden in the walls so he contacted a local private investigator, Thomas Barnes. Barnes, a retired police detective and former military officer, decided to help the staff pro bono, "because they didn't have any money," he said. Barnes loaned the newspaper a scanner to check the office for additional surveillance tools and he urged former Whittier mayor and current councilman Bob Alexander to "light a fire under" the local police. "Most municipal police departments aren't really on the learning curve when it comes to bugs, electronic surveillance, computer crime," Barnes said. "You're lucky, [for] the older policemen, if they can even run a computer. And if they can't even write their own reports or run a computer, then they're surely not going to be able to understand the implications of a bug." "It's pretty serious when you start hard-wiring in because it means you have to have the opportunity to do it," he continued. "This is not for a short-term problem, it's (for) somebody that wants to monitor somebody for a long period of time." The school seems to share his concern. "Student journalism and the free exchange of ideas is something that the institution has supported since its inception," university spokesperson Caye Brundage said. "So we're very concerned about anything that would inhibit the ability of our students to exchange ideas freely or that would create an atmosphere where they felt they were being inhibited." Barnes said he considers the school's administration a suspect in the surveillance. "Who would want to monitor [the newspaper] on a long-term basis?" Barnes asked rhetorically. "You start to come up with a short list of people and one of the people that usually comes up at the very top of the list is administration. It's like a murder case; one of the first people you look at is somebody related to the murder victim." Brundage disagreed, "I can't think of why I as an administrator would want to bug the office," she said. "We are interested in knowing what the [Quaker Campus] is doing but usually we're pretty aware of what stories are being [investigated anyway]." Barnes and Brundage both said that the bug appeared to have been in the wall for "a long time." Sweeps of the rest of the building turned up no additional surveillance devices. In California, electronic eavesdropping in situations where there is an expectation of privacy and individuals are unaware of the surveillance is a felony, Barnes said. Whittier College is the alma mater of former President Richard Nixon, who was forced to resign from office as a result of the Watergate scandal that was triggered by the bugging of Democratic National Committee headquarters in Washington. < Return to Previous Page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 4913 From: Matthew Paulsen Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:06pm Subject: RE: Interesting article > The paper decided to keep possession of the bug. I guess the college is declined entrance to Jim's seminar. Bad school. Bad! Spit it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 4914 From: Matthew Paulsen Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:43pm Subject: RE: RE: Felons on this list? ALL READ > The TSCM industry has nothing to do with passing the laws. I disagree wholeheartedly. The TSCM industry is an active group which can help to pass laws through lobbying efforts to educate the government and private citizenry about the benefits of its services, just as other organizations and industries do. Point in case - the tobacco industry, or the motor industry, or perhaps the software industry. They also don't make laws, they just buy them. Unfortunately, the TSCM community appears to be highly fragmented with no sound base of capital to create the necessary traffic on capitol hill to push an agenda through to create these laws. I'm sure that if the TSCM industry created a form of organization to represent its interests and hired a lobbyist there would be laws passed in the long run to create a more enriched scientific approach to the industry, but this will require a billion dollar company which I don't see in this field. Until then, we'll just have to stick it out with our head in the sand and tell others that it's not our area to make laws, but rather accept the status quo. Back to my comparison of software to tscm - viruses in the computer industry are illegal to spread around wantonly with or without the intent of creating harm, just as bugs appear to be, when a virus comes out that makes a big mess, typically the FBI investigates the antivirus firms first. The step that the government took with bugs hasn't been taken with viruses (and trojans in a sense could be considered bugs in some forms since they have eavesdropping capabilities). 9+ billions of dollars of damage each year is caused by rampant virus attacks, and yet, virus software development companies have libraries of tens of thousands of these viruses actively available to their qa, dev and research departments TO BUILD BETTER PRODUCTS TO PROTECT. Not the TSCM field though. Again, it's the use of the device in a harming manner, not the person that creates a counterdevice with access to it that is the problem. The TSCM field has allowed the government to dictate that the TSCM field cannot research devices through proper possession of these devices, but not to other fields with similar impacts upon information acccess, including espionage and treason, fiduciary liability or personnel protection which sometimes leads to the death of others. >A bunch of us have managed to. I'd rather not rely on people that have managed to get by. I'd rather rely on people that have gotten by because they understand the whole picture, or a larger majority of it than others. Educated individuals with experience vs. semi-educated individuals with experience. I'll take the #1 Miss. >The very idiots who violate the law perpetrate it. >You can thank the spy shops, for one And every $20 tech at Bob Jane Joe's ABC's Computer, Radio & Electronics Shoppe up and down the west coast. As well as software developers that claim to understand network security, and security personnel that stop doing work outside their core field of expertise and begin intruding into other areas that they shouldn't be working in. I don't think I'd be a very good executive protection agent, so I'm not going to run out and getting a level 4 armored vehicle, body armor and a gun and pitching myself to Brandy, Britney, Mandy and Will Smith. But there are people in the security field in one form or antoher that think that if they can do one thing, they can do it all, and that creates further problems. Knowing your boundries is one thing, sticking to them is another which many do not. I'd rather work with others in complementary fields to create a true service that is encompassing in nature and detail while retaining a high level of quality and professionalism for the benefit of the client. Well, off I go, have a server doing something goofy at a client site. Need to see why his remote access doesn't work. Hm. New tagline just came to mind - The difference between a remote access product and a trojan alert is a marketing department. Matt -----Original Message----- From: Steve Uhrig [mailto:steve@s...] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:04 PM To: TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com Subject: [TSCM-L] RE: Felons on this list? ALL READ Once upon a midnight dreary, Matthew Paulsen pondered, weak and weary: > Illegal, what a waste: I truly do not understand why these devices are > illegal to own by individuals or organizations that provide these > services. > Why the TSCM field and the government have decided to mandate that > these devices cannot be used by legitimate entities to perform > legitimate research to develop appropriate technologies for anti and > counter services seems to be a bit strange. The TSCM industry has nothing to do with passing the laws. They were passed because of abuse. And, from my 30 years' experience in the industry, I will state the TSCM industry is one of the largest violators of the law as a class. > How can one protect oneself without the ability to understand what > your are protecting yourself against? A bunch of us have managed to. > Unfortunately, the certifications available that are widely used in the > computing industry are all basically garbage for seasoned > professionals. Same is true for TSCM. Even certifications are meaningless when it comes to possessing, using, advertising, etc, electronic surveillance devices. The very idiots who violate the law perpetrate it. You can thank the spy shops, for one. > I'd dread the day a certification standard was applied to the TSCM field, And rightly so, if previous attempts to do so are considered. All I have time for now. 3000 miles from home, but fortunately with a T1 in my hotel room, and a zillion emails left before I go horizontal. I still love you Aimee, however the spirit is willing, but the flesh is falling asleep ... Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 4915 From: Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:10am Subject: Phila. Mobster's Son Pleads Guilt Phila. Mobster's Son Pleads Guilty By JEFFREY GOLD .c The Associated Press NEWARK, N.J. (AP) - The son of Philadelphia's former mob boss pleaded guilty to bookmaking charges Thursday in a landmark case in which FBI agents tapped into his computer with a surveillance system that has national-security uses. Nicodemo Scarfo, Jr., 36, relented after losing court battles to suppress the gambling records that the FBI secretly obtained from his computer through the ``key-logger'' system. The case attracted attention from privacy advocates, who said the system could be used to spy on computer users. Scarfo faces about three years in prison at his sentencing June 10. As part of the deal, the government dropped a loan-sharking charge, letting Scarfo plead to running a sports book operation. Agents broke into Scarfo's office in Belleville and installed the system on his computer. The system unlocked encrypted files and let FBI agents record keystrokes, yielding a record of the entire gambling and loansharking operation. Scarfo maintained the government needed to disclose all of the details of the system to determine whether the bugging was illegal. He got some relief in the fall, when authorities were forced by a federal judge to release an unclassified summary of the key-logger system. The judge did not require full disclosure, after authorities claimed that would ``jeopardize both ongoing and future criminal and national security operations.'' The final blow for Scarfo came Dec. 26. U.S. District Judge Nicholas H. Politan ruled that agents needed only the search warrant they had. Scarfo contended the agents needed permission for a wiretap, which is more difficult to obtain. He did not appeal the ruling, in part because of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, said one of his lawyers, Norris E. Gelman. ``This is not the time for that. This is a time to close ranks,'' Gelman said. Scarfo's father, the former Philadelphia-Atlantic City mob boss known as ``Little Nicky,'' is in prison. On the Net: U.S. attorney's office in Newark: http://www.njusao.org/break.html Electronic Privacy Information Center: http://www.epic.org 4916 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:52pm Subject: Re: Phila. Mobster's Son Pleads Guilt Yeah, But if Scarfo's attorney found out the details behind keylogger the Bureau used the entire case would get blown apart on appeal and Scarfo would likely walk. -jma At 3:10 PM -0500 2/28/02, MACCFound@a... wrote: >Phila. Mobster's Son Pleads Guilty > >By JEFFREY GOLD >.c The Associated Press > > >NEWARK, N.J. (AP) - The son of Philadelphia's former mob boss pleaded guilty >to bookmaking charges Thursday in a landmark case in which FBI agents tapped >into his computer with a surveillance system that has national-security uses. > >Nicodemo Scarfo, Jr., 36, relented after losing court battles to suppress the >gambling records that the FBI secretly obtained from his computer through the >``key-logger'' system. > >The case attracted attention from privacy advocates, who said the system >could be used to spy on computer users. > >Scarfo faces about three years in prison at his sentencing June 10. > >As part of the deal, the government dropped a loan-sharking charge, letting >Scarfo plead to running a sports book operation. > >Agents broke into Scarfo's office in Belleville and installed the system on >his computer. The system unlocked encrypted files and let FBI agents record >keystrokes, yielding a record of the entire gambling and loansharking >operation. > >Scarfo maintained the government needed to disclose all of the details of the >system to determine whether the bugging was illegal. He got some relief in >the fall, when authorities were forced by a federal judge to release an >unclassified summary of the key-logger system. > >The judge did not require full disclosure, after authorities claimed that >would ``jeopardize both ongoing and future criminal and national security >operations.'' > >The final blow for Scarfo came Dec. 26. U.S. District Judge Nicholas H. >Politan ruled that agents needed only the search warrant they had. Scarfo >contended the agents needed permission for a wiretap, which is more difficult >to obtain. > >He did not appeal the ruling, in part because of the Sept. 11 terrorist >attacks, said one of his lawyers, Norris E. Gelman. > >``This is not the time for that. This is a time to close ranks,'' Gelman >said. > >Scarfo's father, the former Philadelphia-Atlantic City mob boss known as >``Little Nicky,'' is in prison. > >On the Net: > >U.S. attorney's office in Newark: http://www.njusao.org/break.html > >Electronic Privacy Information Center: http://www.epic.org > > >======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >=================================================== TSKS > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt,1910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4917 From: A.Lizard Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:34pm Subject: re: AN IDIOT'S IDIOT Urban legend. http://www.snopes2.com/legal/colander.htm A.Lizard >Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:39:17 +0000 > From: "Justin T. Fanning" >Subject: AN IDIOT'S IDIOT > > >Police in Radnor, Pennsylvania, interrogated a suspect >by placing a metal colander on his head and connecting >it with wires to a photocopy machine. The message >"He's lying" was placed in the copier, and police >pressed the copy button each time they thought the >suspect wasn't telling the truth. Believing the "lie >detector" was working, the suspect confessed. ************************************************************************ new voicemail number,ask if you need it. Personal Web site http://www.ecis.com/~alizard Disaster prep info: http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/y2k.html Littleton Killings: http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/littleto.html backup address (if ALL else fails) alizard@o... IF YOU USE PGP, UPGRADE NOW! A major bug has been discovered in PGP, the new version with the bug fixed is available NOW. PGP 6.5.8 key available by request,keyserver,or on my Web site For e-mail privacy, download PGP from http://www.pgpi.org PGPfone v1.02 and v2.1 available for secure voice conferencing, get your own (W9x,NT,Mac) at http://www.pgpi.org/products/nai/pgpfone/ ************************************************************************ 4918 From: tek492p Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:17pm Subject: Re: "What to do when you discover a bug..." Seminar --- In TSCM-L@y..., "James M. Atkinson" wrote: > > > Attendees will receive a copy of my 100+ page "Discovery Protocol" > which actually exceeds the requirements laid out in CIA Procedural > guides, AR 381-14, and other related standards; however, none of the seminar contents are classified (at least not yet). > Jim -- Will a copy of your 100+ page "Discovery Protocol" be availabe to those who cannot attend? Jack Lindauer Intertect TSCM services Los Angeles (818) 831-0515 4919 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:33pm Subject: Re: "What to do when you discover a bug..." Seminar No, The only way to get the guide is to attend the seminar. -jma At 4:17 AM +0000 3/1/02, tek492p wrote: >--- In TSCM-L@y..., "James M. Atkinson" wrote: >> >> >> Attendees will receive a copy of my 100+ page "Discovery Protocol" >> which actually exceeds the requirements laid out in CIA Procedural >> guides, AR 381-14, and other related standards; however, none of >the seminar contents are classified (at least not yet). >> > >Jim -- > >Will a copy of your 100+ page "Discovery Protocol" be availabe to >those who cannot attend? > >Jack Lindauer >Intertect >TSCM services >Los Angeles >(818) 831-0515 -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt,1910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4920 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 9:24am Subject: Re: "What to do when you discover a bug..." Seminar Whoa, I had no idea that so many people were interested in this seminar... I have already had over two dozen people try to sign up for it, and several people have already sent in blank checks. Judging by the positive feedback, I may end up taking the seminar to various major cities on a regular basis. The majority seem to think that it would best to run it over the weekend, and to run it over both a Saturday and Sunday. Also the majority feel that I should keep the hours down to about 7-8 hours a day so there can be some socializing before and after the seminar. I propose a "happy medium" and will run the seminar over a day and a half so that people can fly in on Friday night, and then fly back out Sunday late afternoon/early evening to allow them to be back home in plenty of time for the next day of work. The course materials are strictly available to seminar attendees who actually show up, and if you leave early you will only receive those materials and terms handed to you up until the time you left. Seminar tuition will be $1295.00, and will include a buffet breakfast each day (before class), a nice catered lunch during the seminar on both days, beverages and snacks (during the class). However, you will be on your own for dinner, drinks, etc. The tuition will include at least 12 hours of formal instruction, and attendees will receive copious proprietary handouts, worksheets, charts, various tools, forensic items, and related materials (so reserve some extra space in your luggage). The seminar will mainly consist of a lecture format with lots of slides and overheads, plus time spent for Q&A. There will also be some practical exercises which will take place both in the seminar, and individually. If there is enough interest I will issue a "certificate of attendance" to those who attend, which will carry the title of "TSCM Discovery Protocols - Basic (12 hours)". Once the date has been settled on I will post a formal seminar notice, and provide registration details to both this forum, and to my website. Please keep the upcoming seminar confidential until after the formal seminar notice goes online. -jma At 10:43 AM -0500 2/28/02, James M. Atkinson wrote: >After some rather serious queries and requests from list members I >have decided to offer a formal one day seminar in Boston, MA on "What >to do when you discover a bug...". > >The cost will be nominal, will run about 10-12 hours, and will be >held in a really nice conference room right in a hotel on the airport >property (so you do not need to rent a car). > >The seminar will include lots of handouts, and detailed discussions >and protocols on how to reduce a "bug find" down into paper >documentation, and how to "cover your ass" both legally, and >practically. > >Attendees will receive a copy of my 100+ page "Discovery Protocol" >which actually exceeds the requirements laid out in CIA Procedural >guides, AR 381-14, and other related standards; however, none of the >seminar contents are classified (at least not yet). > >Based on the preferences of those attending I will offer the seminar >either during the week or over the weekend (whichever the majority >prefer). If there is sufficient demand I may run the course so that >it runs into a second day. > >Enrollment will close several weeks (30 days) in advance so everybody >can buy advance cheap airline or train tickets, and I would encourage >attendees to arrive the evening before the seminar, and to plan to >stay at least the evening of the seminar (as I have a history of >running long hours on courses). > >As required in my other seminars I will require every attendee to >sign a non-disclosure agreement in advance, and to promise to protect >the seminar contents as Proprietary Trade Secrets. There will be one >agreement turned in with the enrollment and seminar fee, and a second >identical one turned in at the very beginning of the seminar. Also, >due to the very sensitive nature of the materials the use of or >possession of cameras, recorders, or any other kind of audio or video >recording devices will be absolutely prohibited. > >Course attendees will be responsible for their own hotel rooms, their >own meals, and transportation. I will provide the conference room, >course materials, voluminous handouts, beverages, light snacks, and >if there is enough interest a buffet breakfast (before class on the >first day). > >I will arrange to accept tuition by either a company check, or via >PayPal, however; if you are a no-show you will forfeit the fee. > >Once I get some feedback from the list membership I will prepare a >PDF and HTML signup sheet and upload it so you can fill it out and >send it in. I am leaning towards the first part of May 2002, or >possibly late mid to late April. > >I would point out that this seminar is for serious TSCM people, >corporate TSCM folks, government TSCM people, and so on. There will >be no sales demos, no equipment instruction, and no hand holding, >period... Only attend if you want to learn about what to do AFTER you >discover the bug. > >If your firm or agency is interested I will consider suit-casing the >seminar and bringing it to your facility for a private (close >enrollment) presentation. > >Also, just as a formality; let me point out that people who illegally >possess (or who have illegally possessed or are known to me to have >illegally possessed) eavesdropping devices are not invited to attend >and will be refused registration. > >-jma -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt,1910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4921 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 1:58pm Subject: RE: Felons on this list? ALL READ Once upon a midnight dreary, Matthew Paulsen pondered, weak and weary: > > The TSCM industry has nothing to do with passing the laws. > I disagree wholeheartedly. The TSCM industry is an active group which > can help to pass laws through lobbying efforts to educate the > government and private citizenry about the benefits of its services, There likely are more attorneys within a 10 mile radius of you than there are competent TSCM practitioners in the world. > Unfortunately, the TSCM community appears to be highly fragmented with > no sound base of capital to create the necessary traffic on capitol > hill to push an agenda through to create these laws. If every professional sweeper donated $1000 per sweep for a year towards a professional lobbyist, you wouldn't be able to staff the lobbyist's office. I've worked with low level nothing groups hiring lobbyisys. Try a million a year to even knock on the door, if you are serious and facing opposition of even a few powerful liberals. There isn't that much money available for lobbying. And, frankly, no one much cares. > I'm sure that if the TSCM industry created a form of organization to > represent its interests and hired a lobbyist there would be laws passed > in the long run to create a more enriched scientific approach to the > industry, but this will require a billion dollar company which I don't > see in this field. There won't be a billion dollars' worth of sweeps done worldwide in a decade, let alone being able to kick some of that towards some nebulous lobbyist. > Until then, we'll just have to stick it out with our head in the sand > and tell others that it's not our area to make laws, but rather accept > the status quo. Sometimes you have to forego the idealism and face reality. College students are full of political ideaology, while mommy and daddy finance them. > 9+ billions of dollars of damage each year is caused by rampant virus > attacks Most of it by zooheaded brand new Internet morons mailing copies to veterans warning them about it. > The TSCM field has allowed the government to dictate that the TSCM > field cannot research devices through proper possession of these > devices The TSCM field has no input into this whatsoever. > I'd rather not rely on people that have managed to get by. I'd rather > rely on people that have gotten by because they understand the whole > picture, or a larger majority of it than others. Educated individuals > with experience vs. semi-educated individuals with experience. The majority of *genuine* sweepers once were buggers for the government. THEY are the ones, and probably nearly the only ones, who understand the whole picture. > The very idiots who violate the law perpetrate it. Is that not largely true? If people didn't break the law, any given law, that law would attract little attention. > I don't think I'd be a very good executive protection agent, We agree on onr point. Let's go from there. > so I'm not going to run out and getting a level 4 armored vehicle, body > armor and a gun and pitching myself to Brandy, Britney, Mandy and Will > Smith. I never pitched Will Smith. He pitched me. > But there are people in the security field in one form or antoher that > think that if they can do one thing, they can do it all, and that > creates further problems. Morons think this. Professionals know their limitations, accept them, and try to improve their skills or, in my case, humbly pass the work to those who are infinitely more capable than I am. And vice versa. > Knowing your boundries is one thing, sticking to them is another which > many do not. Agreed. Some people think they have answers to all the world's problems. Try any corner bar on Friday night. They'll be solving the TSCM/posssesion of surveillance problem, too. > I'd rather work with others in complementary fields to create a true > service that is encompassing in nature and detail while retaining a > high level of quality and professionalism for the benefit of the > client. Well said, and a professional attitude. And is the attitude professionals have. I get a big kick out of PI who 'specialize' in every investigative discipline ever named. > The difference between a remote access product and a trojan alert is a > marketing department. We'll see that in a Scott Adams column next week. There have been several attempts to bring together groups of sweepers to improve the profession in different ways. In EVERY instance, the true unstated purposes of the organization were to, in no particular order: 1) Line the pocket$ of the leader of the organization, 2) Feed the ego of the leader of the organization, 3) Engage in a power struggle where hopefully that particular organization would rise above the others, and the others would fall down on their knees in adoration and wish they could be a part 4) Completely phony 'organizations' existing only as a sales tool for the products or services peddled by someone who knows nothing about them and has never found a bug through their own efforts. 5) Build status in the profession by issuing phony certificates of competence, sometimes at exorbitant costs. These people can't earn a living actually providing services, so they sell certificates. 6) Provide some much needed psychological esteem for the burned out has-been leaders of the organization who will not gracefully be led out to pasture. And a lot more reasons, but the above are contemporary. Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 4922 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 1:41pm Subject: Re: Interesting article Once upon a midnight dreary, preflat@p... pondered, weak and weary: > Students discover "bug" in Whittier College newspaper office Carpenter discovers brain tumor in pet goldfish. > Listening device could have been planted several years ago, says private > investigator Device might not have been a device at all, says someone who believes the private investigator most likely either was incompetent or a liar, likely both. > A routine maintenance service call last week turned up an electronic > surveillance device imbedded in the office walls of the Quaker Campus. It > is not known how long the bug, which was not functioning when pulled from > the wall, was hidden. The device was capable of transmitting a radio > signal to any receiver, tuned to the correct frequency, within a > three-mile radius, editor Amy Stice said. I will have to remember to contact College Newspaper Editors should I find a bug in the future somewhere, since the obviously have an extremely high level of working knowledge of communications, field theory, electronic surveillance technology, antennas, and of course such a breadth of pertinent experience so as to be able to recogize a surveillance device at sight. Funny, takes me a lot of math backed up by empirical testing to determine the range of a surveillance transmitter, and 3 miles is almost beyond what I would consider reality. Guess I need to go back to college and sign up for some journalism courses. Funny, those were the ones the engineering students switched to when they flunked out of engineering. Gonna have to hire this gal. > The discovery prompted a shared sense of disbelief and concern among the > newspaper staff and the university's administration. As this article was > posted, it was not clear which university offices, if any, were > investigating the matter. Whittier Police Department officials contacted > by the SPLC could not find a report of the incident in their database. How inconsiderate of the alleged bugger not to have filed a report with the police department detailing his installation. Terrible inconvenience. > The episode began last Thursday when a maintenance worker, in the > newspaper office to fix a broken light table, found a problem with the > electrical socket. Upon taking it apart, he discovered a two-inch > surveillance device soldered to the back of the socket, Stice said. Gonna have to hire that 'maintenance worker'. Fix a leaking radiator, dredge a hairbrush out of an overflowing toilet, find a bug. > The paper alerted campus security and on Monday an electrician checked all > of the other sockets in the office. No more bugs were found, but campus > security called the Whittier Police Department later that day. Stice said > the officers, however, were reluctant to take action. What action could they take other than prosecute the campus morons for destroying the chain of evidence and chain of custody? They should have spanked them, however, for sticking their noses into something they were not qualified to mess with. Oh, I forgot. They were journalists. They are qualified to do anything. > "The Whittier Police Department came in, apparently looked at the bug and > said, 'Well there's nothing we can do about it; yeah there's a bug but we > don't have any evidence for this,' " Stice said. The officers said they > did not want to file a report, she added, and that such a measure would > necessitate taking custody of the device, which would probably be thrown > away at a later time. 'Apparently' looked at the bug. Apparently said 'yeah there's a bug'. They also 'apparently' could have said, 'There's a dimmer, or noise filter.' > The paper decided to keep possession of the bug. Admission of a felony. Except it is unlikely, in my opinion, it was a bug, so probably no violation. > Student government president Jess Craven, whose office is located in > the same building as the publications room, was worried that more bugs > might be hidden in the walls so he contacted a local private > investigator, Thomas Barnes. An appropriate course of action by the uninitiated. > Barnes, a retired police detective and former military officer, > decided to help the staff pro bono, "because they didn't have any > money," he said. Because if he would have taken any money, it would have been under false pretenses, and he may have been at least that smart. > Barnes loaned the newspaper a scanner to check the office for additional > surveillance tools and he urged former Whittier mayor and current > councilman Bob Alexander to "light a fire under" the local police. Former police and military officers loan scanners to journalists to check for bugs. I will sleep better knowing this. > "Most municipal police departments aren't really on the learning curve > when it comes to bugs, electronic surveillance, computer crime," > Barnes said. Neither are former police officers, former military officers or private investigators. > Barnes said he considers the school's administration a suspect in the > surveillance. I would consider Barnes a suspect. > Barnes and Brundage both said that the bug appeared to have been in the > wall for "a long time." Knob and tube electrical wiring was the clue, no doubt. As was the large power supply and bank of 4CX250 power amplifier tubes in the bug. The blue flashing mercury vapor rectifiers were the real giveaway, however. > Sweeps of the rest of the building turned up no additional surveillance > devices. Good thing he loaned them that scanner. > In California, electronic eavesdropping in situations where there is an > expectation of privacy and individuals are unaware of the surveillance is > a felony, Barnes said. If someone is aware of a surveillance, is it still a surveillance? ============ ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" *******************************************************************