From: Ocean Group Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 9:20am Subject: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Jim Unless you specifically spell out the errors and the mistakes and back up your statement your criticism will be pointless other than offering an "opinion". Regards O ****************** Message: 6 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:08:59 -0500 From: "James M. Atkinson" Subject: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Too bad the article is loaded with both technical and historic errors, and was written by someone who was obviously inexperienced, biased, and attempting to sensationalize on an urban legend and on something of which they had no formal education or training... the same material was funny 25 years ago when someone else "discovered it". Shame on the University for allowing such drivel to appear under their letterhead. -jma 8417 From: J Grudko Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 8:35am Subject: Re: New Member here -----Original Message----- > I am Roger Holloway located in North Texas. Please take a look at my site to >learn more on my services. If I can be of help please fell free to contact me. Roger is like one of those bad pennies - except he's one of the good pennies. In the 7 years my family had property north of Houston I visited frequently and never bumped into him - and now he follows me to every list I'm on!!! :-) Welcome Roger Andy Grudko, Grudko Associates, Johannesburg Crime investigation, intelligence & VIP Protection since 1981 www.grudko.com. Johannesburg (+27 11) 781 7206 - 781 7207 (Fax) Sandton (+27 11) 465 9673 - 465 1487 (Fax) Pretoria (+27 12) 244 0255 - 244 0256 (Fax) Members of :SIRA, SACI, WAD, CALI, SASFed, SASA, UKPIN, AFIO (OS),IWWA. "When you need it done right - first time" 8418 From: Hawkspirit Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 10:23pm Subject: Question for group I have a client who lifted her home phone and heard an automated female voice say "to continue recording this call, press 5", anyone have any ideas on this one? Roger Tolces www.bugsweeps.com ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 3/5/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8419 From: Steve Whitehead Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 3:25pm Subject: Equipment For Sale Dear List Members We are in the process to upgrade the equipment we use in our training classes and have the following excess equipment for sale. If you are interested please contact us directly on the e-mail address below. We ship anywhere in the World. The following equipment is available 2 Scanlock ECM Countermeasures Receivers. Both have their original carrying cases and the original accessories. The one was serviced and calibrated a while back at Audiotel and both have new batteries. Both are in working condition with brand new sets of antennas. The one unit shows outside wear and tear but the other unit is still in good condition. 1 Datong Ranger Version Countermeasures Receiver with the original carrying case. Still in an excellent condition with accessories. 1 Shearwater Hunter V-2 Differential Field Gradient Radio Microphone Detector. This unit is basically brand new and has only been used a few times. 1 ISA, ECR-2 Countermeasures Receiver with the ECR-2 SmartScan software and the MDC-4 Microwave Range Extender from 1 - 7 GHz. The ECR-2 is still in a good condition with a recent calibration certificate and the SmartScan software is the latest CD version that can operate with Windows XP. The antenna of the range extender is broken and the unit requires a service/calibration. The original carrying case and all the accessories are included. 1 Standard Oscor. This is an old model from 1995/1996 but still in a working condition. It is recommended that the this unit be upgraded. 3 ETA-3 Single Line Telephone Analysers, two units have all their original accessories. These units were manufactured by ISA. 1 SuperScout C4 Non-Linear Junction Detector manufactured by Microlab with its original carrying case. It is in a working condition. 1 Audiotel Broom Non-Linear Junction Detector that is in a very good condition with its original carrying case. Recently serviced and fitted with new batteries. This one has not been used for about six years. We also have a demo Hawk 450 XD Non-Linear Junction Detector available for sale. (came onto the market in mid 2003) 1 Winkelmann Model 200 Multi-Line Telephone Analyser. It is in a working order with all the original accessories and overall good condition but because of its weight and size is probably more useful than a boat anchor or as a museum piece. If you are interested or require more info about the equipment you are welcome to contact us directly on e-mail info@t... All serious offers for the equipment will be considered. Regards Steve Whitehead Managing Member TSCMT Services P O Box 16063 Lyttelton 0140 Pretoria South Africa Phone: (012) 664-3157 International (002712) Fax: (012) 664-3180 Web site: http://www.tscm.co.za E-mail: info@t... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8420 From: Ocean Group Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 7:30am Subject: IP Tapping Note the spec, good read. http://www.securityfocus.com/printable/news/8394 8421 From: Spook Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 5:12pm Subject: Re: Question for group 75 mG Thorazine, bid -jma At 11:23 PM 4/5/2004, Hawkspirit wrote: >I have a client who lifted her home phone and heard an automated female >voice say "to continue recording this call, press 5", anyone have any ideas >on this one? >Roger Tolces >www.bugsweeps.com 8422 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 5:26pm Subject: Re: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Sure, Find someone willing to pay for a page-by-page review of the white paper and I'll be happy to do so. Given the number of errors found in the paper on initial review I estimate that spelling out each of them and debunking them individually will cost around $83,500 USD. Will you be paying for that by check, or by cash? -jma At 10:20 AM 4/5/2004, Ocean Group wrote: >Jim > >Unless you specifically spell out the errors and the mistakes and back up >your statement your criticism will be pointless other than offering an >"opinion". > >Regards > >O > >****************** > >Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:08:59 -0500 > From: "James M. Atkinson" >Subject: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science > >Too bad the article is loaded with both technical and historic errors, and >was written by someone who was obviously inexperienced, biased, and >attempting to sensationalize on an urban legend and on something of which >they had no formal education or training... the same material was funny 25 >years ago when someone else "discovered it". > >Shame on the University for allowing such drivel to appear under their >letterhead. > >-jma ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We Expertly Hunt Real Spies, Real Eavesdroppers, and Real Wiretappers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 Web: http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 Email: mailto:jmatk@t... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- World Class, Professional, Ethical, and Competent Bug Sweeps, and Wiretap Detection using Sophisticated Laboratory Grade Test Equipment. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8423 From: mark de Boer Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 0:32pm Subject: micronics MSA 338 Hi list, Is any of you familliar with the Micronics MSA 338 spectrum analyser, the specs seem to be oke for TSCM use Average noise level-110dBm (typical, center frequency : 100MHz RBW : 3kHz, VBW : 100Hz Would it be possible touse a down converter to view the 3>12 Ghz band on this type of analyser? With regards, Marc.de Boer RRBsecurity Archimedesstraat 12 3316 AB Dordrecht Netherlands --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8424 From: contranl Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Gps Detection (detecting Gps trackers/devices) . Gps Detection (detecting Gps trackers/devices) I have developed a simple piece of equipment for the quick detection and finding of Gps based devices, It will detect all Gps devices such as: Cartrackers (combination of a Gps receiver and Gsm/Cellphone) Cartrackers (combination of a Gps receiver and wireless modem) Cartrackers (combination of a Gps and low power burst transceiver) Cartrackers (combination of a Gps receiver and a passive datalogger) Any other device that use a Gps receiver It will detect Gps receivers that work on both frequencies: L1 Civil, 1575.42 Mhz L2 Militairy, 1227.60 Mhz The equipment has the size of a cigarette pack...it has a small telescopic antenna, and works on batteries,there is a display that shows the frequency and signalstrength,a speaker with volume control for audible verification is included too. a flashing Led or (switchable)beeper indicates a valid signal.for silent operation a headphone output is provided. It will allow you to search a car,truck,small boat or package in a few minutes and detect any possible Gps devices. It can be operated by non skilled operators with just a little understanding of radio-signals The newest Gps receivers can now be so sensitive that direct sight of satellites is no longer necessary this is achieved by increasing the number of "correlators" wich is basically a mathematical function in the ever more powerful Dsp-processors wich are inside every Gps receiver...tests have shown that a valid position can now be calculated when the Gps receiver is in a underground parking garage...or even when the receiver is inside a microwave oven wich is highly screened. In pratice this means that a car tracker including it's antenna now can be hidden anywhere inside or under a car.(and not only in the usual places)..it will need just a very small opening to the outside world...this opening does'nt have to have a view on the sky...the antenna can be in any direction where it can pick up some reflections coming from anywhere,the antenne could be directed to the ground and pick up reflections there...it could be in a closed trunk while picking up the signals trough the non metallic backseats and windows...it could be cleverly mounted inside the engine compartment...and so on. A purely physical inspection now means the complete dismanteling of the car or at least removing the dashboard and all panels since the Gps receiver could be anywhere...such a dismanteling is not easy and might take a full day or more...and if not done by specialists it might leave some damage and scratches. How it works: Gps receivers do emit (unwanted) radiation...some of these low to very low power signals are caused by: Local oscillators (LO) Processor clock circuits (quarz crystal) Intermidiate frequency/mixer circuits (spurious) The above frequencies depend on the design of the circuit and vary from manufacturer to manufacturer they could be predicted...but since there are hundreds of gps receivers available you would end up with a list of thousands of frequencies (that is if you can get your hands on all these receivers...wich you can't)...together with other frequencies that are found in cars and caused by other electronic equipment, To check every found frequency and determine whether it is caused by a gps receiver or other car-electronics is a big and lengthy task and certainly not do-able for unskilled operators. However there is one common frequency rediated from every Gps receiver...this frequency is allways the same and is neccesary to make the receiver work...without it a Gps receiver cannot function....this frequency is : 1,023 Mhz wich is called the "CHIPRATE" sometimes called "CHIPPING RATE" or "CA CODE" All Gps-satellites send there information at a dataspeed of 1,023 Mb/sec the Gps receiver receives this signal and needs to synchronize it's internal processes to the same dataspeed to calculate a position....such a dataspeed generates a low power radio signal at 1.023 Mhz it will also generate various harmonics...these harmonics can go up to a few hundred Mhz for example 63 times 1,023 Mhz = 64,4490 Mhz....wich harmonic is the strongest depends on the design of the circuit (components used , length of the coppertraces on the circuitboard , screening quality and size of the housing), if the unit is wired to the car's electrical circuit will make a difference too and will tend to increase the strength of harmonics in the lower frequency range. Such harmonic radiation is very weak and will not show up on a spectrum analyzer....it will not be picked up by any wideband- detector either...simply because they are not sensitive enough. A real receiver with high sensitivity (tuned frontend) can pick up such a harmonic radiation at a distance varying from 30 centimeters to 4 meters My detector is a real scanning (high sensitive) receiver programmed with 1000 frequencies (exact harmonics of 1.023 Mhz) between 1 and 2000 mhz ... it will most certainly (99,99%) pick up one of the harmonics provided it's antenna is close enough to the (hidden) receiver The fact that it will only receive exact harmonics of the Gps- receiver generated signal greatly rules out the reception of other (false)signals generated by other equipment/electronics. Furthermore such a harmonic can easely be identified since it always sounds the same...nomatter wich Gps receiver is used. it sounds like a continious data stream with typical variations...infact what you hear is part of the process that's going on inside the Dsp chip The militairy Gps-signals (L2) happen to have an exactly 10 times higher "CHIPRATE" wich is 10 x 1.023 = 10.23 Mhz...this is not a coincidence....that's how the system was designed...so there harmonics will also show up at some of the same frequencies but only further spaced apart. To furthermore facilitate the identification i have added a small microprocessor (Pic) wich analyzes and recognizes the typical signature/sound of the signal...when it detects a valid signal it will flash a Led or a (switchable) beeper. Operation of the unit is straightforward and easy: First you do a sweep like you would do with any other handheld rf detector ( you sit inside the car and move the antenna in all directions,then you walk slowly around the car while keeping the antenna close to the car, then you do the bottom of the car by moving the antenna across the bottom,then you do a more precise scan by "touching" or keeping the antenna close to all surfaces,panels and objects in and outside the car (in a similair fashion as you would do with a metaldetector or "broomeffect"-detector) Moving the antenna should be done slowly in order to give the receiver the time to scan all harmonics ( 2 seconds for all 1000 frequencies) Unit has been tested on: Garmin,Magellan,Lowrance,Trimble,Wavecom,Benefon,Proscout...etc Possible options are: A) Additional programming of custom frequencies (for example those caused by other known bugging equipment) B) Additional antenna with 25 dB low noise amplifier (1~2000 mhz) adjustable gain, 1,5 meter HighQ coax cable (phantom feed..does'nt need extra batteries) C) Additional triband Gsm detector (800/1800/1900 Mhz) with signature verification wich will also detect handshaking/updating signals while gsm unit is in standby and not making a call( usefull to detect Gsm transmitters/bugs/devices)...it might take somtime for such a handshake/update signal to appear...therefore the unit can be left unattended and will sound an alarm or flash a light until it is reset) active gsm transmitters will ofcourse be announced immidiatly. distance to Gsm transmitter can be more then 12 meters. You may contact me at: info@t... Greetings Tetrascanner www.tetrascanner.com . 8425 From: contranl Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 6:47pm Subject: Why do my posting not appear ? Could anyone tell my why my postings do'nt appear ? actually i wouild like amn answer from a modersator of this group ! i do'nt get any notification I do'nt get any message from the moderator that my postings are not ok , off topic or something like that I have written to James (moderator) he does not respond at all I am a member of several yahoo groups and this is the only one that causes problems It's ok with me if you do'nt like my postings it's your group but at least you should tell me that once I do'nt consider it very funny when i spent hours and hours writting the stuff...and then find out it was all for nothing This has happened at least 3 times now the last month so it's not a coincidence if you do'nt want my postings please tell me so that is the least thing you can do and to me that seems the correct way Once again i do'nt think this is funny and i would like an answer Thanks tetrascanner www.tetrascanner.com 8426 From: gkeenan Date: Wed Apr 7, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: Why do my posting not appear ? Well, Hard to say. James is a busy guy. However, you haven't provided any info on your self, either. And quite frankly, as a published writer myself, you use of English and its attendent puncuation and syntac leaves a lot to be desired. On the other hand, you command of the English language does not, in my opinion, mean anything - really. But since you didn't provide a signature so people on this list know what language you're using - then, hey, what the hell! We don't even know who you are, what country you're in, what language you speak, or what your command of the English language is (you don't have to speak the Queen's English - few of us do - but you could at least let us know who you are, and your company). As to why your posts don't appear? Not a clue. Happens to me from time to time as well, and not just on this list - but on the other 75 lists I belong to (not counting the 3 I'm owner/moderator of). Jerry GPKeenan Co. 1005 Celia St. West Islip, NY 11795-2503 (631) 587-4020 (ph) (631) 587-4020 (fax1) (530) 323-6832 (Fax2) (516) 587-4020 (cell) secureops@o... gkeenan@s... ----- Original Message ----- From: contranl To: TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 7:47 PM Subject: [TSCM-L] Why do my posting not appear ? Could anyone tell my why my postings do'nt appear ? actually i wouild like amn answer from a modersator of this group ! i do'nt get any notification I do'nt get any message from the moderator that my postings are not ok , off topic or something like that I have written to James (moderator) he does not respond at all I am a member of several yahoo groups and this is the only one that causes problems It's ok with me if you do'nt like my postings it's your group but at least you should tell me that once I do'nt consider it very funny when i spent hours and hours writting the stuff...and then find out it was all for nothing This has happened at least 3 times now the last month so it's not a coincidence if you do'nt want my postings please tell me so that is the least thing you can do and to me that seems the correct way Once again i do'nt think this is funny and i would like an answer Thanks tetrascanner www.tetrascanner.com ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TSCM-L/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TSCM-L-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8427 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Wed Apr 7, 2004 1:02am Subject: Not your typical Sweep Equipment I have 11 ea recently refurbished and dyno'd Cummins NHC-250 engines still sealed in the steel transit cases with dyno certs running them at 400 horses each. Also have 8 ea matching 5 speed manual Rockwell transmissions (all new), and three new automatic 4 speed trannys for the NHC-250's. The transmissions include TWO PTO's with the first suitable for running 30-100 KW generator, and the second for running a hydraulic pump. I am looking for some more 20 foot, S-280 shelters in good shape suitable for refurbishment, plus I need several new swingfires. If anyone on the list is interested let me know. -jma PS: Yes, I use these bad boys for bug sweeps ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We Expertly Hunt Real Spies, Real Eavesdroppers, and Real Wiretappers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 Web: http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 Email: mailto:jmatk@t... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- World Class, Professional, Ethical, and Competent Bug Sweeps, and Wiretap Detection using Sophisticated Laboratory Grade Test Equipment. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8428 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Wed Apr 7, 2004 11:51am Subject: Riser Bond TDR batteries If you have any older model Riser Bond TDRs with lead acid batteries (any before 1205CXA, including the 1205T), the rechargeable batteries have been discontinued by the manufacturer. I suspect the lead content caused some environmental concerns. Riser Bond has a few old ones left for $95 + ship. I've got the last of production from March, fresh stock, for $75 + ship and will install for another $50. The batt packs are true lead acid, not gelcells. They're closer to round than rectangular. There is no effective replacement for the lead acid packs unless you want to go to very expensive NiMH which involves Riser Bond or you or me recalibrating the charging circuit and changing some components. Space is at a premium inside the yellow box TDRs and space was allocated for this particular battery pack. While others certainly could be adapted, it's needless work. Replace yours now on your own terms instead of having to redesign the thing in a year or two when your battery dies. If you bought your TDR from me it had a new battery when shipped and should be good for 5 years if you don't leave it on charge all the time but charge it after use and every few months of storage. More batteries of this type die from being cooked to death from overcharging than any other cause. Contact me if you'd like a lead acid original battery to install yourself (takes about 45 minutes) or if you'd like me to swap it for you. Supply is very limited. I can take credit cards and ship anywhere in the world. I can supply NiMH batteries for the more recent models at a higher price. Contact me for details. Remember, if you're in a European country, you need a 50 Hz battery instead of the 60 Hz version used in the U.S. Specify when ordering. Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 8429 From: Hawkspirit Date: Wed Apr 7, 2004 0:56pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Question for group >I think Darren has it figured out. A way to record calls using mesage >center special features and then three way calling to connect to the party >you want to record, if you timing is off, the target would hear the >automated voice. Darren you are sharp dude! Also thanks to all others that responded. Roger Tolces www.bugsweeps.com >Darren said: > >I don't know if this is it or not but several cell phone messages >have similiar messages "to continue recording press 5" etc if anyone >on the phone caller A, caller B, or 3 way caller C were on there >with a voice mail deal then that could be it. > >I've noticed that people that don't have equipment to record calls >think that is a neat way to do it i.e. calling their own cell >number and getting the voice mail then 3 way calling the person >that they want to record and talking, but they forget that there is >a time limit on that or they hang up and forget there was a 3 way >call. > > >Darren > > >--- In TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com, Hawkspirit wrote: > > I have a client who lifted her home phone and heard an automated >female > > voice say "to continue recording this call, press 5", anyone have >any ideas > > on this one? > > Roger Tolces > > www.bugsweeps.com > > > > ---------- > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 3/5/2004 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 3/5/2004 ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 3/5/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8430 From: Ocean Group Date: Wed Apr 7, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Well, I certainly didn't ask for a page by page review, however it was that pointed out that it was riddled with inaccuracies and then proceeded to call it "drivel". If you felt so strongly about it then I would imagine it should only take a couple of seconds to write down the biggest errors, I do know that you are kept busy hunting spys, but surely after critcising someone's hard work you'd at least have the decency to back up your attack with a couple of lines of substance. I look forward to it, Kind regards Oisin PS. Yes messages do from time to time not appear on the list, they are quietly, how could I put it, muffled. ****** Message: 4 Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 18:26:12 -0400 From: "James M. Atkinson" Subject: Re: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Sure, Find someone willing to pay for a page-by-page review of the white paper and I'll be happy to do so. Given the number of errors found in the paper on initial review I estimate that spelling out each of them and debunking them individually will cost around $83,500 USD. Will you be paying for that by check, or by cash? -jma 8431 From: Hawkspirit Date: Wed Apr 7, 2004 8:01pm Subject: Historical Sweep Article Here is a new article just added to my historical sweep articles section. Roger Tracking Down Bugs Using a Spectrum Analyzer Are you being bugged? Here's how to find RF bugging devices that are invading your privacy. by Richard A. Bowen Radio Electronics, June 1989 http://www.bugsweeps.com/info/tracking_bugs.html ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 3/5/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8432 From: David Alexander Date: Thu Apr 8, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science James You don't have to debunk the entire paper, just pick one point at random and do one of your renowned demolition jobs on it's science and logic for us. Think of it as a sales pitch for your knowledge and skills.... David Alexander Dbi Consulting Ltd Stoneleigh Park Mews Stoneleigh Abbey Kenilworth Warwickshire CV8 2DB Office : 01926 515515 Mobile: 07836 332576 Email : David.Alexander@d... Have you visited our website? http://www.dbiconsulting.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: Ocean Group [mailto:inertia@o...] Sent:07 April 2004 18:47 To:tscm-l@yahoogroups.com Subject:[TSCM-L] Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Well, I certainly didn't ask for a page by page review, however it was that pointed out that it was riddled with inaccuracies and then proceeded to call it "drivel". If you felt so strongly about it then I would imagine it should only take a couple of seconds to write down the biggest errors, I do know that you are kept busy hunting spys, but surely after critcising someone's hard work you'd at least have the decency to back up your attack with a couple of lines of substance. I look forward to it, Kind regards Oisin PS. Yes messages do from time to time not appear on the list, they are quietly, how could I put it, muffled. ****** Message: 4 Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 18:26:12 -0400 From: "James M. Atkinson" Subject: Re: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Sure, Find someone willing to pay for a page-by-page review of the white paper and I'll be happy to do so. Given the number of errors found in the paper on initial review I estimate that spelling out each of them and debunking them individually will cost around $83,500 USD. Will you be paying for that by check, or by cash? -jma ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Yahoo! Groups Links 8433 From: Date: Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:13pm Subject: Big Brother in rearview mirror of rental cars Big Brother in rearview mirror of rental cars Jane Engle Los Angeles Times Apr. 11, 2004 12:00 AM If you care about your privacy or your pocketbook, ask whether your rental car has electronic tracking equipment and what it's used for. The answers may surprise you - if you can get them. Since 2002, more rental cars have been fitted with such systems, which instantly can relay information on your car's speed, route and position to the rental company. This is done by wireless devices and Global Positioning System receivers that pinpoint location. Rental companies say they use the devices mainly to track stolen vehicles. Sparked lawsuits A flurry of lawsuits two years ago accused a Budget Rent A Car licensee in Tucson of using such a system to covertly track renters who took cars out of state and to fine them thousands of dollars. Earlier, another rental company, in New Haven, Conn., allegedly tracked renters who drove faster than 79 mph and fined them. State officials ordered the Connecticut company to stop the practice. The Tucson cases were settled last year, on undisclosed terms, and Budget says the outlet there has stopped tracking renters. But the issue didn't end there. At least two renters say Payless Car Rental in the San Francisco area used electronic tracking in the past few months to fine them for taking cars out of state. One of them, Steve McCarney of Reston, Va., said he was "absolutely furious" when a Payless licensee that serves the Oakland airport added $786.37 in penalties to his $155.52 four-day rental because he drove the car out of state to Ashland, Ore., for a wedding. He said the rental staff told him he was tracked electronically. McCarney said he wasn't told about the out-of-state rule, and it was buried in the contract, and there was no notice of the tracking system. Payless spokeswoman Margie Martin said that the company did provide disclosure on these issues online and in contracts, and that its licensees had a right to keep tabs on their vehicles. "It's their property, and they need to know where it is at any given time," she said. Spurs legislation Now, a California assemblywoman has introduced a bill to crack down on electronic tracking in the industry. Under the bill, a rental company would have to tell customers when they make their reservation whether the car has "electronic surveillance technology" and what it's used for. Disclosure would be oral and written in at least 12-point type on the rental contract. The company couldn't share or store electronic-tracking data unless the renter gave permission, and it couldn't use the data to impose fines or surcharges. So far, industry response to the bill is mixed. Hertz activates the devices, which are mostly on luxury cars, only "if we suspect a vehicle has been stolen," said Richard Broome, spokesman for Hertz, and otherwise does not track renters' speed or location. Renters aren't told which cars have electronic tracking because the company wants to avoid tipping off thieves, he added. Avis and Budget, in a joint statement, said they "unequivocally do not use satellite tracking devices" unless "a vehicle is reported stolen to law enforcement." Although Avis and Budget "strongly discourage" uses other than recovering stolen vehicles, independent franchisees, who run about a quarter of Avis' outlets and nearly half of Budget's, can use the tracking devices "in any lawful manner," the companies said. Which is what worries privacy watchdogs: Almost any use could be lawful, given the lack of regulation. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8434 From: Date: Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:02pm Subject: File - mission.txt TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List Dedicated to TSCM specialists engaging in expert technical and analytical research for the detection, nullification, and isolation of eavesdropping devices, wiretaps, bugging devices, technical surveillance penetrations, technical surveillance hazards, and physical security weaknesses. This also includes bug detection, bug sweep, and wiretap detection services. Special emphasis is given to detecting and countering espionage and other threats and activities directed by foreign intelligence services against the United States Government, United States corporations, establishments, and citizens. The list includes technical discussion regarding the design and construction of SCIF facilities, Black Chambers, and Screen Rooms. This list is also for discussing DIAM 50-3, NSA-65, and DCID 1/21, 1/22 compliance. The primary goal and mission of this list is to "raise the bar" and increase the level of professionalism present within the TSCM business. The secondary goal of this list is to increase the quality and effectiveness of our efforts so that we give spies and eavesdroppers no quarter, and to neutralize all of their espionage efforts. This mailing list is moderated by James M. Atkinson and sponsored by Granite Island Group as a public service to the TSCM, Counter Intelligence, and technical security community. 8435 From: Date: Wed Apr 7, 2004 2:16am Subject: Re[3]: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science > Given the number of errors found in the paper on initial review I estimate > that spelling out each of them and debunking them individually will cost > around $83,500 USD. You've almost got me on the hook! What about outlining just the first few errors, as a pre-sales effort? *pre-sales efforts are of course free of charge* ;-) Ciao! Remo Cornali Milano, Italy 8436 From: Noel E. Hanrahan Date: Wed Apr 7, 2004 2:06pm Subject: RE: Why do my posting not appear ? Sir, Firstl, I agree with Jerry, maybe James has a problem with the English you use, but as he said, there is no indication that English is your first language ( I would hope it isn't) so you may be excused. However, not signing your postings really isn't an acceptable part of lists like this, so maybe you should tell us all who you are, where you are from and the like. On to your Tetrascanner: I have developed a simple piece of equipment for the quick detection and finding of Gps based devices, Quick Detection you say? Define "Quick" considering it takes 2 seconds (your words) to go through the range of frequencies in your little "box", and what you are looking for is a radiating signal or harmonic from a timing circuit, I would suggest that to cover a small car properly would take you the best part of half an hour...IF YO KNEW WHAT YO WERE DOING, which according to this........ It can be operated by non skilled operators with just a little understanding of radio-signals ........ isn't a given. I can only assume from the above that your chosen market isn't TSCM professionals, because lets face it, all you've done is take something like an old Bearcat 200 XLT, made it smaller, taken a few things out, changed the frequency and VOILLA, a GSM detecter.... now...... The newest Gps receivers can now be so sensitive that direct sight of satellites is no longer necessary this is achieved by increasing the number of "correlators" wich is basically a mathematical function in the ever more powerful Dsp-processors wich are inside every Gps receiver...tests have shown that a valid position can now be calculated when the Gps receiver is in a underground parking garage...or even when the receiver is inside a microwave oven wich is highly screened. ...... I MAY be wrong, and somebody else on the list might help me out here, but isn't the whole idea of GPS to use.. em.. whats them things called again... oh yes, SATELLITES? I have tried and I have tried with my magellan to get a signal in my parking garage, and it doesn't work. With or without external antenna. The basic idea is that you NEED a line of sight so the processor can time the distance between it and the different satellites and get it's position. My wife didn't approve of putting the Magellan inside the microwave oven, but stubborn as I am, I tried and couldn't get a signal there either. However there is one common frequency rediated from every Gps receiver...this frequency is allways the same and is neccesary to make the receiver work...without it a Gps receiver cannot function....this frequency is : 1,023 Mhz wich is called the "CHIPRATE" sometimes called "CHIPPING RATE" or "CA CODE" O.K. Oscillators giving chips a frequency of 1,023 Mhz. It could be true, there are hundreds if not thousands of combinations you can use to get that frequency. HOWEVER, considering that any radio circuit will be very well shielded as per FCC regulations, that frequency will not escape the device, and if it does it won't go more than a few inches.... so again I ask, how long to check every inch of a vehicle? To furthermore facilitate the identification i have added a small microprocessor (Pic) wich analyzes and recognizes the typical signature/sound of the signal...when it detects a valid signal it will flash a Led or a (switchable) beeper. Is it just me or does the above statement make it sound like this device comes with CCS written on it somewhere, what with the state of the art LED and beeper...... Operation of the unit is straightforward and easy: First you do a sweep like you would do with any other handheld rf detector ( you sit inside the car and move the antenna in all directions,then you walk slowly around the car while keeping the antenna close to the car, then you do the bottom of the car by moving the antenna across the bottom,then you do a more precise scan by "touching" or keeping the antenna close to all surfaces,panels and objects in and outside the car (in a similair fashion as you would do with a metaldetector or "broomeffect"-detector) Now I have some questions. My Nextel has a GPS receiver built in.... will your "box" detect that? WHY would someone use a GPS tracking system with GSM? GSM technology is on the whole more accurate than GPS AND works quite nicely underground, inside buildings and pretty much anywhere. Ask my staff, they get a bit annoyed when I query their phones every half hour..... Sincerely, Noel E. Hanrahan IDSS, PERU +51 1 9743 9117 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8437 From: contranl Date: Wed Apr 7, 2004 8:05pm Subject: Dutch sigint station (satellite interception) from 2 to 22 dishes . A small sigint station in The Netherlands (satellite interception) is going to upgrade it's capacity by increasing the number of satellite dishes from 2 to 22 Militairy say this is neccessary to keep up with the current happenings in the world...when completed it will be one of the biggest satellite interception stations in the world..(probably top 5 ). Initial cost will be 70 Million Euro's. Critics such as D.Campbell (the journalist who revealed the Echolon network to the world)and some insiders say that it's overkill for such a small country and that the only purpose would be to place itself on the intellegence-community map where trading of intellegence (real and commercial) is the order of the day. Some members of parliament are opposed and will ask questions. source: dutch national tv tetrascanner www.tetrascanner.com . 8438 From: Russ Date: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:21pm Subject: RF Jamming - Stadium Protection Law enforcement in Washington State has asked me about the effectiveness of this system. Anyone have experience or knowledge? What about the ability of groups with a nefarious purpose gaining access to such a system and rendering law enforcement or first responders ineffective? Respectfully, Russ PROTECTION OF OLYMPIC SIZE STADIUMS AND LARGE ARENAS FROM IMPROVISED RADIO-CONTROLLED EXPLOSIVE DEVICES FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: New York, New York - April 2, 2004, Security Intelligence Technologies, Inc., today announced the launch of its new product, the STADIUM FREQUENCY SPECTRUM JAMMING SYSTEM (SJ5000). The SJ5000 is a bomb jammer that uses tower mounted stations in combination with mobile stations to provide protection for stadiums and temporarily crowded areas around the stadium from radio frequency (RF) operated explosive devices. RF receiving equipment in light towers and minibuses transmit and receive signals to detect, locate and jam RF spectrum within the preset vicinity.. The SJ5000 prevents the use of RF explosive triggering objects including cell phones, pagers or similar electronic products used in terrorist operations as well as jam almost any radio-controlled device smuggled into virtually any stadium, rendering them inoperable. "Radio Frequency controlled bombs and suicide bombers generally operate from a considerably short distance using transmitters with an output of less than 5 watts." States Brady Geril, VIP of Product Management at SITG." Their primary terrorist tactic is creating fear of an attack more than the attack itself. A large, crowded, public space presents an obvious target because it allows terrorists to blend into their surroundings and choose their desired moment of detonation. Without the SJ5000, defense in this situation would be quite limited and the detonation of even one isolated bomb within the perimeter would cause panic and chaos." A stadium-centered computer serves as the main control of the SJ5000's operations and executes all frequency-finding procedures. Jamming stations providing local jamming to all entrance areas can be extended by the addition of mobile stations driven around the stadium. The towers and mobile units may serve as observation posts for security teams who are also able to communicate by programming communication windows into the system, allowing security personnel to speak with each other throughout the stadium during frequency jamming. 8439 From: lgslgslgslgs_lgslgslgslgs Date: Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:09am Subject: A question about NLJD hi, everyone I am a new member. I have read some of messages and learned a lot of. I have a question about NLJD. I saw the article in http://www.tscm.com/tmdenljd.html. And I found "When a microwave sweep generator is synchronized and offset to a digital spectrum analyser the results are far superior to that of any NLJD (but much more expensive). For this reason NLJD's rapidly lost favor during the late 1980's, and have since been replaced with microwave sweep generators (if you don't mind dragging around an extra 60+ pounds of equipment). The technique of using a sweep generator as a NLJD signal is know a "Chirping"." But I don't undersatand about it. If mircowave sweep generator generates a linear FM signal? What is the principle? 8440 From: larry d chapman Date: Thu Apr 8, 2004 6:23am Subject: Re: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Maybe we need a "Whiner of the Month" award or maybe a "Wall of Shame" board upon which to post this sort of thing. --------- Original Message --------- DATE: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:46:34 From: Ocean Group To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com Cc: Well, I certainly didn't ask for a page by page review, however it was that pointed out that it was riddled with inaccuracies and then proceeded to call it "drivel". If you felt so strongly about it then I would imagine it should only take a couple of seconds to write down the biggest errors, I do know that you are kept busy hunting spys, but surely after critcising someone's hard work you'd at least have the decency to back up your attack with a couple of lines of substance. I look forward to it, Kind regards Oisin PS. Yes messages do from time to time not appear on the list, they are quietly, how could I put it, muffled. ****** Message: 4 Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 18:26:12 -0400 From: "James M. Atkinson" Subject: Re: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Sure, Find someone willing to pay for a page-by-page review of the white paper and I'll be happy to do so. Given the number of errors found in the paper on initial review I estimate that spelling out each of them and debunking them individually will cost around $83,500 USD. Will you be paying for that by check, or by cash? -jma ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TSCM-L/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TSCM-L-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ____________________________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8441 From: Monty Date: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: Gps Detection (detecting Gps trackers/devices) Have to say this from the beginning WHAT A PIECE OF BULLSHIT. Can what he says be done ? Yes But only in the quite of RF clean room. Could you ever rely on this in the field? NO !!! The problem is that people will buy this trash and this will just encourage him (and others like him) to continue to build crap. With a little more effort they could be building equipment that we could really use. Monty --- contranl wrote: > . > > > Gps Detection (detecting Gps trackers/devices) > > I have developed a simple piece of equipment for the > quick detection > and finding of Gps based devices, > > It will detect all Gps devices such as: > > Cartrackers (combination of a Gps receiver and > Gsm/Cellphone) > Cartrackers (combination of a Gps receiver and > wireless modem) > Cartrackers (combination of a Gps and low power > burst transceiver) > Cartrackers (combination of a Gps receiver and a > passive datalogger) > Any other device that use a Gps receiver > > It will detect Gps receivers that work on both > frequencies: > > L1 Civil, 1575.42 Mhz > L2 Militairy, 1227.60 Mhz > > The equipment has the size of a cigarette pack...it > has a small > telescopic antenna, and works on batteries,there is > a display that > shows the frequency and signalstrength,a speaker > with volume control > for audible verification is included too. a flashing > Led or > (switchable)beeper indicates a valid signal.for > silent operation a > headphone output is provided. > > It will allow you to search a car,truck,small boat > or package in a > few minutes and detect any possible Gps devices. > It can be operated by non skilled operators with > just a little > understanding of radio-signals > > The newest Gps receivers can now be so sensitive > that direct sight > of satellites is no longer necessary this is > achieved by increasing > the number of "correlators" wich is basically a > mathematical > function in the ever more powerful Dsp-processors > wich are inside > every Gps receiver...tests have shown that a valid > position can now > be calculated when the Gps receiver is in a > underground parking > garage...or even when the receiver is inside a > microwave oven wich > is highly screened. > > In pratice this means that a car tracker including > it's antenna now > can be hidden anywhere inside or under a car.(and > not only in the > usual places)..it will need just a very small > opening to the outside > world...this opening does'nt have to have a view on > the sky...the > antenna can be in any direction where it can pick up > some > reflections coming from anywhere,the antenne could > be directed to > the ground and pick up reflections there...it could > be in a closed > trunk while picking up the signals trough the non > metallic backseats > and windows...it could be cleverly mounted inside > the engine > compartment...and so on. > A purely physical inspection now means the complete > dismanteling of > the car or at least removing the dashboard and all > panels > since the Gps receiver could be anywhere...such a > dismanteling is > not easy and might take a full day or more...and if > not done by > specialists it might leave some damage and > scratches. > > How it works: > > Gps receivers do emit (unwanted) radiation...some of > these low to > very low power signals are caused by: > > Local oscillators (LO) > Processor clock circuits (quarz crystal) > Intermidiate frequency/mixer circuits (spurious) > > The above frequencies depend on the design of the > circuit and vary > from manufacturer to manufacturer > they could be predicted...but since there are > hundreds of gps > receivers available you would end up with a list of > thousands > of frequencies (that is if you can get your hands on > all these > receivers...wich you can't)...together with other > frequencies that > are found in cars and caused by other electronic > equipment, > To check every found frequency and determine whether > it is caused by > a gps receiver or other car-electronics is a big and > lengthy task > and certainly not do-able for unskilled operators. > > However there is one common frequency rediated from > every Gps > receiver...this frequency is allways the same and is > neccesary > to make the receiver work...without it a Gps > receiver cannot > function....this frequency is : 1,023 Mhz wich is > called > the "CHIPRATE" sometimes called "CHIPPING RATE" or > "CA CODE" > > All Gps-satellites send there information at a > dataspeed of > 1,023 Mb/sec the Gps receiver receives this signal > and needs to > synchronize it's internal processes to the same > dataspeed to > calculate a position....such a dataspeed generates a > low power > radio signal at 1.023 Mhz it will also generate > various > harmonics...these harmonics can go up to a few > hundred Mhz > for example 63 times 1,023 Mhz = 64,4490 Mhz....wich > harmonic is the > strongest depends on the design of the circuit > (components used , > length of the coppertraces on the circuitboard , > screening quality > and size of the housing), if the unit is wired to > the car's > electrical circuit will make a difference too and > will tend to > increase the strength of harmonics in the lower > frequency range. > > Such harmonic radiation is very weak and will not > show up on a > spectrum analyzer....it will not be picked up by any > wideband- > detector either...simply because they are not > sensitive enough. > > A real receiver with high sensitivity (tuned > frontend) can pick up > such a harmonic radiation at a distance varying from > 30 centimeters > to 4 meters > > My detector is a real scanning (high sensitive) > receiver programmed > with 1000 frequencies (exact harmonics of 1.023 Mhz) > between 1 and > 2000 mhz ... > it will most certainly (99,99%) pick up one of the > harmonics > provided it's antenna is close enough to the > (hidden) receiver > The fact that it will only receive exact harmonics > of the Gps- > receiver generated signal greatly rules out the > reception of other > (false)signals generated by other > equipment/electronics. > Furthermore such a harmonic can easely be identified > since it always > sounds the same...nomatter wich Gps receiver is > used. > it sounds like a continious data stream with typical > > variations...infact what you hear is part of the > process that's > going on inside the Dsp chip > > The militairy Gps-signals (L2) happen to have an > exactly 10 times > higher "CHIPRATE" wich is 10 x 1.023 = 10.23 > Mhz...this is not a > coincidence....that's how the system was > designed...so there > harmonics will also show up at some of the same > frequencies but only > further spaced apart. > > To furthermore facilitate the identification i have > added a small > microprocessor (Pic) wich analyzes and recognizes > the typical > signature/sound of the signal...when it detects a > valid signal it > will flash a Led or a (switchable) beeper. > > Operation of the unit is straightforward and easy: > First you do a sweep like you would do with any > other handheld rf > detector ( you sit inside the car and move the > antenna in all > directions,then you walk slowly around the car while > keeping the > antenna close to the car, then you do the bottom of > the car by > moving the antenna across the bottom,then you do a > more precise scan > by "touching" or keeping the antenna close to all > surfaces,panels > and objects in and outside the car (in a similair > fashion as > you would do with a metaldetector or > "broomeffect"-detector) > > Moving the antenna should be done slowly in order to > give the > receiver the time to scan all harmonics ( 2 seconds > for all 1000 > frequencies) > > > Unit has been tested on: > Garmin,Magellan,Lowrance,Trimble,Wavecom,Benefon,Proscout...etc > > Possible options are: > > A) > Additional programming of custom frequencies (for > example those > caused by other known bugging equipment) > > B) > Additional antenna with 25 dB low noise amplifier > (1~2000 mhz) > adjustable gain, 1,5 meter HighQ coax cable (phantom > feed..does'nt > need extra batteries) > > C) > Additional triband Gsm detector (800/1800/1900 Mhz) > with signature > verification wich will also detect > handshaking/updating signals > while gsm unit is in standby and not making a call( > usefull to > detect Gsm transmitters/bugs/devices)...it might > take somtime for > such a handshake/update signal to appear...therefore > the unit can be > left unattended and will sound an alarm or flash a > light until it is > reset) active gsm transmitters will ofcourse be > announced immidiatly. > distance to Gsm transmitter can be more then 12 > meters. > > > You may contact me at: > > info@t... > > Greetings > > Tetrascanner > www.tetrascanner.com > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ 8442 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:43pm Subject: Re: RF Jamming - Stadium Protection Once upon a midnight dreary, Russ pondered, weak and weary: > Law enforcement in Washington State has asked me about the > effectiveness of this system. I find that very hard to believe. You can't get away with statements like that here. Try Usenet. Law enforcement has fingertip and phone call access to the top EOD/IED experts on the planet. There are groups of hundreds of specialists funded by millions of dollars who know virtually everything there is to know about the technology. They're not going to go to an unknown for information. > Anyone have experience or knowledge? The described system from the mentioned company is complete fiction. The press release you read was written to entice ignorant investors into buying phony 'dealerships'. Beware. There, I just saved you a $50,000 ripoff. Do your homework. Research CCS in the archives for this list and elsewhere on the web. You're welcome. Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 8443 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:48pm Subject: Re: Tempest...No SpyShop BS, Just Science Once upon a midnight dreary, cornali@r... pondered, weak and weary: > What about outlining just the first few errors, as a pre-sales effort? > *pre-sales efforts are of course free of charge* Wrong. I know you're joking, but this leads into a serious point. ------------- Pre-sales efforts are paid for on a consulting arrangement, via a retainer paid in advance. If a sale results, the pre-sale consulting fees are credited in full thus costing the customer nothing. If the customer doesn't buy and is wasting our time, the fee covers our time, overhead and expenses. Position yourself as a technical specialist, not a salesperson. People waste less of your time that way. Does your attorney grant the first legal session free? Not reputable ones. Does he ever work out of his own pocket? Only on contingencies, and then you pay expenses usually anyway. He's only gambling his fees. You want to be positioned in the minds of potential clients as a professional, not a car salesman. Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 8444 From: Date: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:51am Subject: Re: RF Jamming - Stadium Protection In a message dated 4/13/2004 12:14:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, vercingetorixbc@y... writes: > < its > new product, the STADIUM FREQUENCY SPECTRUM JAMMING SYSTEM (SJ5000).>> Sounds / smells like Arpege to me..... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 8445 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:13pm Subject: Re: RF Jamming - Stadium Protection It boggles the mind. -jma At 04:51 PM 4/13/2004, NoPositiveWork@a... wrote: >In a message dated 4/13/2004 12:14:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, >vercingetorixbc@y... writes: > > > > < > its > > new product, the STADIUM FREQUENCY SPECTRUM JAMMING SYSTEM (SJ5000).>> > > Sounds / smells like Arpege to me..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We Expertly Hunt Real Spies, Real Eavesdroppers, and Real Wiretappers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. 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